# Jesus Camp: Evangelical Christians "taking back" America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2006, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118 "2006-09-10T01:32:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/81 "2006-09-11T04:25:46Z")
[QUOTE=nano8track] Yeah we have that in the US. It’s called elementary school. [/quote] Whoa. Now that’s ridiculous. Teaching kids math and how to read are in no way akin to teaching them unwavering fealty to a particular ideology. > [@](#): > > Pro/no prayer, pro/no gay, creation/evolution, etc… Is it really imperative that little kids be faced with these issues? Once they reach middle school age they can certainly discern a lot better what they think is right. Is it really imperative that we have the state teach conservative/liberal propganda to little children? Wtf? What propaganda? Schools teach kids ABOUT things. They don’t tell them to or not to pray, to or not to be gay, and evolution is science in the same way at all other science is. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/82 "2006-09-11T04:30:04Z")
[QUOTE=nano8track] And when a Democrat is elected president (I hope) in two years they might just pray for him the same way. [/quote] Now that’s interesting: did these camps pray for Clinton? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/83 "2006-09-11T05:14:54Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] Now that’s interesting: did these camps pray for Clinton? [/QUOTE] BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HAH! 😃 Oh, stop it, you’re _killing_ me here…! ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/84 "2006-09-11T06:17:17Z")
> [@](#): > > **nano8track** : I live in Tennessee, i.e. Red State USA. The two electoral votes did go for Bush, but the “Red” _vs_ “Blue” state notion really doesn’t hold up. [url=[http://www.princeton.edu/~rvdb/JAVA/election2004/](http://www.princeton.edu/~rvdb/JAVA/election2004/)]Tennessee, like most of the country, was actually varying shades of purple. Just scroll down and take a look. Notice how blue Tennessee’s urban areas are. > [@](#): > > **jjimm** : Then there’s the apparentl modern evangelical view of tithing, which I only learned about on the SDMB, which strikes me as even more insane than that. The practice of setting aside 10% of one’s income for the church – or some other designated portion – is not limited just to Evangelical Protestant denominations, but is practiced in some moderate denominations as well. I know some Presbyterians tithe, although it is not required for membership. Some people do that rather than give to charity. My mother has tithed for at least the six decades that I have known her and I am impressed by her self-discipline. > [@](#): > > **nano8track** : Again in my part of the country some preachers have been known to tell their congregations who to vote for before an election. > nano8track: Neither side can leave well enough alone. They can get their churches into serious trouble when they do. They can lose their tax exempt status. > [@](#): > > **nano8track** : Yeah but they might just pray for him because he’s the president. And when a Democrat is elected president (I hope) in two years they might just pray for him the same way. I guess I’m one of the few posters in this thread that doesn’t auotmatically want to assume the worst about this group. Why do you automatically want to make assumptions about the people who post in this thread then? > [@](#): > > **nano8track** : So I will amend my previous statement to, “Southern conservatives do not watch documentaries, including this one.” Is this based on anything besides your personal experience talking to people at theaters in the South? To what do you attribute this trait? Do you think they might watch documentaries on television? What makes Southern Conservatives different from Conservatives elsewhere? When I was a child, we sang some pretty militant Christian songs, but we didn’t take them seriously. We actually didn’t think about the words all that much. I don’t know what this woman’s intentions are. She sounds creepy, but maybe that’s just her way of saying things. Maybe her motives are really just very fundamental and not as scarey as they sound. She does want to teach the children to use visions and dreams to foretell the future and she wants to teach them to heal the sick. Better to stick with those things than to get them all emotionally jazzed up. Why can’t they just go swimming and have stunt night and tell ghost stories and make lanyards? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/85 "2006-09-11T06:19:43Z")
[Tennessee is a Purple State](http://www.princeton.edu/~rvdb/JAVA/election2004) Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/86 "2006-09-11T07:29:32Z")
[QUOTE=nano8track] Narrow and intolerant how? Please be specific. I don’t see anything from the clips about the camp being exclusionary, nor do I see them wanting to force every person in the world to follow their ideology. [/QUOTE] No, there’s nothing particular in the video to suggest that (except that the whole ‘taking back…’ thing is about aggressively trying to get others to embrace their views), but based on my personal experience of Evangelical Christianity, I’ll say that if the people in the video _are not_ generally intolerant of homosexuality, abortion, other faiths, evolution, etc, then I’ll eat my umbrella. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/87 "2006-09-11T08:52:41Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] Bloody hell, I googled “Kids on Fire” - [look at the pictures](http://kidsinministry.com/Current.PastEvents/WavesOfGlory.html). That’s frightening. Poor wee kids.:dubious: [/QUOTE] All I’m curious about is, which brand of South African candy was Kotze waving about? Because some local candy bars are of the devil… ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/88 "2006-09-11T12:10:01Z")
[QUOTE=mrrealtime] nevertheless, if someone starts telling kids they need to be willing to “Die for Jesus” , that person needs to be sent a message, loud and clear, from all of us, Dems, Conservatives, Churchgoers and Athiests alike that that kind of message wont be tolerated to any degree in our part of the world, and that they need to encourage kids to love each other, and that their lives are more important than any political, spiritual, or fanatical ideal held by anyone. [/QUOTE] Um, I think Jesus told people they should be willing to die for Him. He did tell His followeres to leave, even to flee, persecution at times, but He also told them that when they had to either back down or die, it was better to die. Take it up with Him. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/89 "2006-09-11T12:34:02Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] The Ku Klux Klan? You mean the terrorist group that was responsible for the murder of thousands of people while opperating as the de facto government for almost thirty years? That Ku Klux Klan? Yeah, that analogy works for me. [/QUOTE] My point is that since 1960 the Klan has been dead politically, but it is still running summer camps for kids teaching them fanatic hatred. And so, for a half century, we have had organized fanatics in our midst, and yet somehow American society has survived. We can survive the Jesus fanatics, too. yes, we do need to be aware of them-- but not intimidated by them. In repsonse to the godwinizers above, who compared this camp to the Hitler youth,: there is one big difference. In Germany,they saluted giant posters of their fuhrer. In this camp, they salute giant posters of G.W.Bush --but these kids and their parents know that in 2 years Bush will be _out of office_, and they totally accept that fact. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/90 "2006-09-11T12:57:30Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] Now that’s interesting: did these camps pray for Clinton? [/QUOTE] I attended a Christian high school during the Clinton administration. They always had a picture of the president on the wall and ordered students to pray for him daily. Clinton was an exception-- they refused to allow his image to besmirch their walls and the daily prayers for the president stopped, replaced by prayers that God would help our country. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/91 "2006-09-11T13:25:14Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Liberals SHOULD be scared. So should conservatives. The religious right has been getting progressively more and more theocratic, anti-social, hostile, fanatic and anti-American in its rhetoric for years now. [/QUOTE] And the PC left hasn’t? Sometimes I think the PC left and the religious right hate each so much precisely because they see so much of themselves in each other. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/92 "2006-09-11T13:27:58Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] One of the reviews in the trailer praised it for being “even handed” or something like that. [/QUOTE] It’s hard to portray “crazy” with an even hand. I think people should be concerned. Who are they planning on “taking back” America from? The intellectuals, Liberals, Jews, homosexuals and immigrants? What are they planning on “taking back”? Women’s right to abortion? Scientific progress? Separation between church and state? My sense is that these people want a return to 1950’s American values where white Christians are not only the majority but the dominant culture in the US. While I think it’s great that they are willing to tolerate the existance of other cultures, the world has changed a bit in the past 50 years and they need to realize it. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/93 "2006-09-11T13:39:49Z")
[QUOTE=nano8track] Narrow and intolerant how? Please be specific. I don’t see anything from the clips about the camp being exclusionary, nor do I see them wanting to force every person in the world to follow their ideology. [/quote] You don’t consider the concept of taking back America for Christ to be even a smidge narrow-minded and/or intolerant? Really? I wish like hell that I could live in your world. And while they don’t seem to be in any hurry to force everyone in the world to follow their ideology, if you believe for even a moment that they’re willing to live and let live once they’ve taken back America, then you need to get out and pay some attention to Evangelical Christianity. > [@nano8track](#): > > This is not even mentioning the general bashing toward evangelicals that several posts have made not related to the debate. Either you need to provide specific details how this group is being more intolerant than the posters in this thread, or you are suggesting that there are several sociopaths that frequent these boards. This is the oldest and most ridiculous argument I’ve ever encountered inre intolerance. “If you are intolerant toward those who are intolerant, you’re no better than they are.” It’s bullshit, and the sooner you pick up on that, the better for the rest of the world. As to any intolerance evinced by the Flaming Kids for Jesus People, or whoever they are, it doesn’t take a lot of work to pick up on the intolerance that exists in the Evangelical community. Find one, ask him or her about Catholics, homosexuals, LDS, atheists. . .hell, ask 'em about Episcopalians. > [@nano8track](#): > > Either you’re trying to put words into my mouth or you don’t know what we’re debating. My point was that both parties like to sometimes push their agenda on little children through schools. Including “Heather has Two Mommies” in the curriculum is part of the liberal agenda. Not including it is part of the conservative agenda. Neither side can leave well enough alone. No. Your point, such as it was, was that **elementary** age children were being indoctrinated by the state. Something that you have thus far failed to demonstrate even one instance of. Of course, if you have something, by all means post away. Otherwise, you’ve brought up something specious and ridiculous and when others pointed this out to you, you dropped this tack as if it were radioactive. > [@nano8track](#): > > Yeah but they might just pray for him because he’s the president. And when a Democrat is elected president (I hope) in two years they might just pray for him the same way. I guess I’m one of the few posters in this thread that doesn’t auotmatically want to assume the worst about this group. Yeah, they might. Pigs might fly out of their respective butts, too. And they will do the former as soon as the latter comes to pass. As to your eternally sunny outlook on this group, I think it’s giving them more credit than they’re worth. > [@nano8track](#): > > Those are all midwest states though. It may be that midwestern conservatives are more interested in documentaries, but that list of movie locations doesn’t include many spots in the south. 2nd and 3rd week has plenty of spots in NY, CA and IL. Look at the whole list and only 1 city in Florida is there and Atlanta is not even included. So I will amend my previous statement to, “Southern conservatives do not watch documentaries, including this one.” What in blue hell are you on about? Are you actually saying that midwestern conservatives rush pell mell to do things that conservatives elsewhere don’t? Do you ever listen to yourself? > [@nano8track](#): > > It looks like the movie isn’t about a bunch of kids that want to take over the government after all. Of course not. It’s about a group of adults that run a camp for children. The **adults** want those selfsame children to take over the government. Pretty simple, I thought. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/94 "2006-09-11T14:00:41Z")
[QUOTE=nano8track] Narrow and intolerant how? Please be specific. I don’t see anything from the clips about the camp being exclusionary, nor do I see them wanting to force every person in the world to follow their ideology. On the other hand in this very thread someone has said: [/QUOTE] The lady in the clips is talking about the necessity of training kids at a young age because that’s what the Muslim extremists do. {a hint that Muslims don’t worship the same God?} She also makes the comment that “we have the truth” which implies that those who don’t agree with us obviously don’t. That’s one problem I have with certain brands of Christianity or any religion teaching, “we are right, completely right, and everybody else therefore must be wrong” Look at their beliefs and honestly tell me that it doesn’t indicate a certain narrow minded process. Do you suppose anyone in this group would support having “Heather has two mommies” in a public library? Is that intolerant? > [@](#): > > Someone in this thread has already said that the entire world should be intolerant of this group. This is not even mentioning the general bashing toward evangelicals that several posts have made not related to the debate. Either you need to provide specific details how this group is being more intolerant than the posters in this thread, or you are suggesting that there are several sociopaths that frequent these boards. :eek: Sociopath; of, relating to, or characterized by asocial or antisocial behavior or exhibiting antisocial personality disorder so um yah, some frequent these boards. You will see evangelical bashing and the ridicule of anyone with certain beliefs by a few. For the most part it’s not their religious beliefs that people object to. It’s the concept that they want to take back America that bothers people and it should. I’ve read a lot of dishonest Christian propaganda about how America is a Christian nation and founded on Christian principles. They are sincerely concerned about too much acceptance and diversity. Is that more intolerance? They talk and act as if Christianity {their form} has some sort of dibbs on the nation and it’s up to them to save this country for their God , which happens to be the only right one. Although they may not recognize their attitude as narrow minded and intolerant that’s exactly what it is. They are welcome to think and believe what they like. When they act on these beliefs to affect the lives of others then people certainly need to react. > [@](#): > > Either you’re trying to put words into my mouth or you don’t know what we’re debating. My point was that both parties like to sometimes push their agenda on little children through schools. Including “Heather has Two Mommies” in the curriculum is part of the liberal agenda. Not including it is part of the conservative agenda. Neither side can leave well enough alone. Was trying to teach equal human rights in the south generations ago part of the liberal agenda? Is it leaving well enough alone to not teach equal human rights? If you read the link about this book you see that all some people can see in the word homosexual is sex. Sexual practices they believe are immoral. A story book about the existence and acceptance of families outside the norm bothers them because they see it as teaching young kids about sex. It isn’t. A book about a single Mom or Dad wouldn’t bother them nearly as much if at all. > [@](#): > > Yeah but they might just pray for him because he’s the president. And when a Democrat is elected president (I hope) in two years they might just pray for him the same way. I guess I’m one of the few posters in this thread that doesn’t automatically want to assume the worst about this group. Your point seems to be not to jump to conclusions and I agree. We shouldn’t assume we know with certainty without sufficient evidence. Really though, look at the evidence. They don’t need an image of Bush to pray for their leaders. Their stated purpose is to take back America for Christianity. Bush claims to be a compassionate conservative christian and has catered to the wishes of the conservative christian right including a shameful attempt for a bigoted amendment defining marriage in the constitution. Do you really think they are praying for him just as president? Do you think it’s more likely that they pray for him to continue to help them take back America and for good christian men like him to become president and continue his “good” work. What a horrible freakin thought that is. > [@](#): > > It looks like the movie isn’t about a bunch of kids that want to take over the government after all. 🙂 No it’s about kids being trained by adults to want to take over the government. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/95 "2006-09-11T15:26:45Z")
So I guess that’s a no. They generally don’t pray for Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/96 "2006-09-11T15:40:49Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] And the PC left hasn’t? [/quote] The “PC left” is mostly a figment of the right’s imagination. There certainly is no theocratic element on the left, nor is there any growing, populist movement on the left attempting to impose a religious ideology through legislation. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/97 "2006-09-11T19:08:12Z")
**Zoe** I should clarify my badly worded comment on tithing: rather than the laudable self-taxation for worthy causes, I meant the alleged belief (that I admit I’ve only read here) that if one tithes, then there’s no need to worry about money because it will come back to you from God in a sort of karmic bank style. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/98 "2006-09-11T19:48:52Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Yeah, and I’m sure they edited it to highlight the most extreme quotes. [/QUOTE] Just remember that while you’re seeing today’s endless loop of the WTC collapsing. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![mrklutz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@mrklutz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrklutz)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/99 "2006-09-11T20:40:05Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Um, I think Jesus told people they should be willing to die for Him. He did tell His followeres to leave, even to flee, persecution at times, but He also told them that when they had to either back down or die, it was better to die. Take it up with Him. [/QUOTE] He isn’t posting in this thread, so I’ll take it up with you. I haven’t had a chance to watch the clip linked in the OP yet, but if **Hey You!**'s summary that “one of the clips shows her saying how she wants kids to lay down their lives for Jesus the way that Islamic fundamentalists lay down their life for Islam” is accurate, then I think that’s very worrisome indeed. Don’t you find it troubling that someone would want to emulate Islamic fundamentalism? There’s a huge difference between “It’s better to die than to renounce your faith” and “You should be willing to die to promote your faith”. The latter thinking leads to killing people in the name of religion. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/100 "2006-09-11T20:42:50Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] The “PC left” is mostly a figment of the right’s imagination. [/QUOTE] Yeah, _sure_ it is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118.md?page=6)