# Jesus Camp: Evangelical Christians "taking back" America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2006, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118 "2006-09-10T01:32:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/101 "2006-09-11T22:25:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Yeah, sure it is. Can you show us where the “PC left” is guiding policy in any way similar to the Religious Right? I don’t think anyone says there aren’t nutty lefties, but are they making policy decisions like the nutty righties? Can you show us? Where are the “leftist indoctrination camps” that are similar to the ones portrayed in this movie. Please, enlighten me. I can tell from your debating style you are a true lover of the facts, and aren’t just posting inflamatory garbage. ---
**Author:** ![nano8track](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8e8cbc/32.png) [@nano8track](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nano8track)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/102 "2006-09-12T00:04:23Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] Whoa. Now that’s ridiculous. Teaching kids math and how to read are in no way akin to teaching them unwavering fealty to a particular ideology. [/quote] I’m not talking about math and reading, but political issues that seem to creep their way into elementary schools like the ones mentioned in the quote below. > [@](#): > > Wtf? What propaganda? Schools teach kids ABOUT things. They don’t tell them to or not to pray, to or not to be gay, and evolution is science in the same way at all other science is. Prayer: We may have to agree to disagree on this. To me when a teacher stands in front of the class in the morning and prays that is teaching kids to pray. If it is suddenly removed then it is teaching kids to not pray. Gay: “Heather Has Two Mommies” is definitely propoganda. There’s no doubt that it gives a liberal message to children. Now don’t get me wrong, If I read the book I would probably agree with the message that it’s sending. But I also know that that there are many people who wouldn’t agree with it. Because of that I certainly don’t want the state teaching it to little children. See no matter how right you think your position is I don’t believe you should force that position on little children via the state. Consider how you’d feel if the law made it mandatory to teach things that you strongly disagree with? Evolution: I already said this in a previous post, but in hindsight most areas tend to wait until middle school to teach evolution. I have the same view though, that evolution is controversial enough that it should be that way. > [@Zoe](#): > > The two electoral votes did go for Bush, but the “Red” vs “Blue” state notion really doesn’t hold up. Tennessee, like most of the country, was actually varying shades of purple. Just scroll down and take a look. Notice how blue Tennessee’s urban areas are. Nice map. 🙂 However you have to consider that Gore is from Tennessee and in 2000 the state went to Bush. If a Democrat can’t even win his own state it’s safe to conclude that it’s very conservative. Also Southern Democrats are known to be more moderate than Democrats in other parts of the country. (Also Tennessee gets 11 electoral votes and all states get at least 3.) It is true that the urban areas are more liberal by comparison particularly Knoxville and Nashville. > [@](#): > > Is this based on anything besides your personal experience talking to people at theaters in the South? Well if you look at the cities mentioned for release: [Jesus Camp | A Magnolia Pictures Film | Starring Mike Papantonio, Lou Engle and Becky Fischer | Own it on DVD or Digital HD](http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/theatreList.html) you’ll see that the two cities in Tennessee are the two I just mentioned. Also Atlanta is noticably absent. It’s big enough to host the 1996 Olympics. You’d think they could find a theatre for this movie to be shown in. > [@](#): > > What makes Southern Conservatives different from Conservatives elsewhere? Because culture somewhat varies in the US depending on region among other things. > [@Mangetout](#): > > No, there’s nothing particular in the video to suggest that (except that the whole ‘taking back…’ thing is about aggressively trying to get others to embrace their views), but based on my personal experience of Evangelical Christianity, I’ll say that if the people in the video are not generally intolerant of homosexuality, abortion, other faiths, evolution, etc, then I’ll eat my umbrella. I’ll be ready to gladly pass the ketchup. 🙂 > [@Lissa](#): > > I attended a Christian high school during the Clinton administration. I’m curious as to the denomination associated with the school. Was it Pentacostal or at least some sort of Evangelical denomination. If not then what was the denomination? > [@GLWasteful](#): > > You don’t consider the concept of taking back America for Christ to be even a smidge narrow-minded and/or intolerant? Really? I wish like hell that I could live in your world. Come on in man there’s plenty of room. 🙂 > [@](#): > > And while they don’t seem to be in any hurry to force everyone in the world to follow their ideology, if you believe for even a moment that they’re willing to live and let live once they’ve taken back America, then you need to get out and pay some attention to Evangelical Christianity. > > This is the oldest and most ridiculous argument I’ve ever encountered inre intolerance. “If you are intolerant toward those who are intolerant, you’re no better than they are.” It’s bullshit, and the sooner you pick up on that, the better for the rest of the world. As to any intolerance evinced by the Flaming Kids for Jesus People, or whoever they are, it doesn’t take a lot of work to pick up on the intolerance that exists in the Evangelical community. Find one, ask him or her about Catholics, homosexuals, LDS, atheists. . .hell, ask 'em about Episcopalians. The main difference between this group and your view is that they aren’t professing intolerance toward any group, but you are. Also this Pentacostal group is not representative of Evangelical Christianity. According to this site Baptists out number Pentacostals by nearly an 8:1 ratio. [JERUKBET: Situs Slot Gacor Resmi Akses JP Terbaik Bet Maxwin Hari Ini](http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html) I notice that you’re more than willing to lump them all together as if they’re exactly the same which comes across as quite prejudiced. The justified intolerance that you are promoting is a scary thing, especially when this group hasn’t explicitly done anything of an intolerant nature. > [@](#): > > No. Your point, such as it was, was that elementary age children were being indoctrinated by the state. Ah, so you’re the one putting words into my mouth. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > Your point seems to be not to jump to conclusions and I agree. We shouldn’t assume we know with certainty without sufficient evidence. Really though, look at the evidence. They don’t need an image of Bush to pray for their leaders. Their stated purpose is to take back America for Christianity. Bush claims to be a compassionate conservative christian and has catered to the wishes of the conservative christian right including a shameful attempt for a bigoted amendment defining marriage in the constitution. Do you really think they are praying for him just as president? Do you think it’s more likely that they pray for him to continue to help them take back America and for good christian men like him to become president and continue his “good” work. What a horrible freakin thought that is. > No it’s about kids being trained by adults to want to take over the government. Rather than going by a couple minutes of clips I’m willing to accept what’s said by someone who has actually seen the film. [http://www.lokifilms.com/site/JCpress/press\_4.html](http://www.lokifilms.com/site/JCpress/press_4.html) > [@](#): > > But the film is not otherwise about politics… unless you believe that any strong Christian religiosity is inherently political. > > AND > > But these children are not being taught politics in the film. This movie is not about politics. The children are not being taught politics. On the other hand there ARE Evangelical groups which are highly political. This is not one of them. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/103 "2006-09-12T00:25:45Z")
[QUOTE=nano8track] Prayer: We may have to agree to disagree on this. To me when a teacher stands in front of the class in the morning and prays that is teaching kids to pray. If it is suddenly removed then it is teaching kids to not pray. [/QUOTE] I’m sorry, but that is simply preposterous. For one thing, it hasn’t been “suddenly removed,” it’s something virtually all American schoolchildren have never experienced at all. If the teacher DOESN’T do yoga, does that teach kids that they should not do yoga? If the teacher doesn’t play Pai Gow poker, does that teach the kids not to play poker? If the teacher doesn’t knit a sweater during class is the teacher teaching that knitting is wrong? > [@](#): > > Evolution: I already said this in a previous post, but in hindsight most areas tend to wait until middle school to teach evolution. I have the same view though, that evolution is controversial enough that it should be that way. Evolution isn’t taught until middle school (usually high school, actually) mainly because basic biology isn’t taught until middle/high school. It’s not taught to first graders not because it’s controversial, but because it would be pointless to do so; it’s beyond their grasp. Ignorance is not a point of view. **Evolution is fact** ; it is not a matter of opinion. A few years back - we had a thread on it - there was a poll done of a representative sample of Americans that showed that an amazing number of people were ignorant of the most basic science facts. Something like forty percent of all people thought that sound travelled as fast as, or faster than, light. So, is it your position that schools should wait until middle school to teach that light is faster than sound, because it’s so “controversial”? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/104 "2006-09-12T01:47:45Z")
**nano8track** , I don’t know why I came up with two votes instead of eleven. I’m certain that you must be correct. > [@](#): > > Nice map. However you have to consider that Gore is from Tennessee and in 2000 the state went to Bush. If a Democrat can’t even win his own state it’s safe to conclude that it’s very conservative. Isn’t this the same Tennessee that voted Gore into Congress in 1976? And in 1978? 1980? 1982? Didn’t they elect him to the Senate in 1984? Didn’t he win the Super Tuesday Presidential Primary in Tennessee in 1988? Wasn’t he reeclected to the Senate in 1990? And didn’t his pappy serve in Congress and the Senate from 1938 until the 1970’s? Tennessee has a strange way of showing that they are “very conservative.” If they had been “very conservative” in 2004, that map would have been as red as those areas in the Midwest. Rumor has it that Tennessee is so very conservative that it is about to elect a Black moderate Democrat to the Senate. > [@](#): > > **nano8track** : I notice that you’re more than willing to lump them all together as if they’re exactly the same which comes across as quite prejudiced. Generally not a good idea with groups even when it’s conservatives, Southerners, Tennesseans, liberals, elementary schools, Dopers, and Christians and the State. > [@](#): > > If I read the book I would probably agree with the message that it’s sending. But I also know that that there are many people who wouldn’t agree with it. Because of that I certainly don’t want the state teaching it to little children. > > See no matter how right you think your position is I don’t believe you should force that position on little children via the state. Consider how you’d feel if the law made it mandatory to teach things that you strongly disagree with? I was a teacher and each year I would have approximately 200 students that passed through my classroom. How would it be humanly possible to stick with only those subjects that everyone agreed with? And should I do that anyway? One of the things my students most liked were classroom discussions of controversial topics where they were encouraged to express their opinions. It wasn’t my job to indoctrinate them. It _was_ my job to encourage them to think for themselves and to think creatively. Providing a safe way to do that can be tricky. Prayer has never been removed from schools. State-sponsored prayer has been removed. I believe it is also legal to provide a moment of silence just in case someone feels the urge. **jjimm** , sorry that I misspelled your name. Thanks for the clarification on tithing. That does make a difference. I’ve never gone along with the idea of “give so that you can get.” But I guess that is a slight twist on just having faith that your needs will be met. Although my mother was a prosperous woman eventually, she surely went through hard times and worked hard. It’s strange that I’m defending her. There isn’t much that I like about her, but her self-discipline is one of those things. I mean, we are talking about a 93 year old woman who grabbed her cold cream when the ambulance came to take her to the hospital. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/105 "2006-09-12T02:44:15Z")
[QUOTE=nano8track] Prayer: We may have to agree to disagree on this. To me when a teacher stands in front of the class in the morning and prays that is teaching kids to pray. If it is suddenly removed then it is teaching kids to not pray. [/QUOTE] Do you realize how silly this sounds? How inaccurate it is? The kids are not being taught _not_ to pray. They are being taught that people can choose for themselves and a teacher led prayer is np longer the norm. > [@](#): > > Gay: “Heather Has Two Mommies” is definitely propoganda. There’s no doubt that it gives a liberal message to children. Now don’t get me wrong, If I read the book I would probably agree with the message that it’s sending. But I also know that that there are many people who wouldn’t agree with it. Because of that I certainly don’t want the state teaching it to little children. Did you read the details about this in the link you provided? It is **not** pushing a liberal agenda to teach children that there are other types of acceptable families out there. Would a book showing an interracial couple as Mom and Dad aimed at teaching tolerance be also pushing a liberal agenda? PArents may want to reserve the right to pass on their bigotry and irrational fears but it’s hard to label tolerance and understanding as being a specifically liberal agenda isn’t it? I did notice you avoided answering my questions directly? Give it a shot. > [@](#): > > See no matter how right you think your position is I don’t believe you should force that position on little children via the state. Consider how you’d feel if the law made it mandatory to teach things that you strongly disagree with? That alternative families and lifestyles exist is not a position. It is a fact. Teaching children about diversity is not forcing any belief on them. > [@](#): > > Rather than going by a couple minutes of clips I’m willing to accept what’s said by someone who has actually seen the film. [http://www.lokifilms.com/site/JCpress/press\_4.html](http://www.lokifilms.com/site/JCpress/press_4.html) > > This movie is not about politics. The children are not being taught politics. On the other hand there ARE Evangelical groups which are highly political. This is not one of them. I never indicated that the film was predominantly political. Are there political overtones and indications. Yes. Is there evidence that this group {not the children but the adults teaching them} has a political agenda? Yes? Even your reviewer says so. Regarding President Bush he says, > [@](#): > > That all said, when Bush comes into the film specifically, in the mouth of Becky Fischer or others, it is completely appropriate in my opinion\*\*. He is a huge hero to this group. He is one of the them, they believe\*\*. And their sense that he has created acceptance for them is completely worthy of being in the film. I believe that was the point I made before which your reviewer apparently agrees with. They don’t pray for him as just the president , but as their fellow Christian president. Even with all the dishonesty and sending people to kill and be killed for his lies these folks still see him as a christian hero. Who is trotting him out for prayer? Not the kids. The adults in charge. If you don’t see strong indications of a political agenda in that then you need your vision checked. The kids aren’t being taught politics per say. They are being indoctrinated into a belief system by a group with a political agenda. Taking back America. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/106 "2006-09-12T03:52:16Z")
[QUOTE=nano8track] . . .political issues that seem to creep their way into elementary schools like the ones mentioned in the quote below. Prayer. . . Gay. . . Evolution. . . (shortening all mine, natch-GLW) [/quote] Well, you’ve already had your ass handed to you inre the above. Damn me for having to attend a school board work session this evening and miss out on all the fun. > [@nano8track](#): > > Come on in man there’s plenty of room. (smilie mercifully eliminated for the good of all mankind) Nah, that’s all right. I prefer to stay out here in reality. Enjoy yourself, though. > [@nano8track](#): > > The main difference between this group and your view is that they aren’t professing intolerance toward any group, but you are. Oh? It appears you should go back and watch the link again. > [@nano8track](#): > > Also this Pentacostal group is not representative of Evangelical Christianity. According to this site Baptists out number Pentacostals by nearly an 8:1 ratio. [JERUKBET: Situs Slot Gacor Resmi Akses JP Terbaik Bet Maxwin Hari Ini](http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html) > I notice that you’re more than willing to lump them all together as if they’re exactly the same which comes across as quite prejudiced. The justified intolerance that you are promoting is a scary thing, especially when this group hasn’t explicitly done anything of an intolerant nature. “You’re intolerant toward the intolerant! That makes you at least as bad as they are!” Said it before, laddie and I’ll say it again: bullshit. > [@nano8track](#): > > Ah, so you’re the one putting words into my mouth. Am I now? Read on: > [@nano8track](#): > > Yeah we have that in the US. It’s called elementary school. Unless you have the resources for private or home schooling your kids have to learn what the state wants to teach them. To me the most scary thing is that both conservatives and liberals often want the state to teach some part of the party message to little kids: Pro/no prayer, pro/no gay, creation/evolution, etc… Is it really imperative that little kids be faced with these issues? Once they reach middle school age they can certainly discern a lot better what they think is right. Is it really imperative that we have the state teach conservative/liberal propganda to little children? > > That scares me far more than anything from those video clips. This is a small group with far less power than the state has. Y’wanna tell me what words I put into your mouth? Particularly since the above followed a quote from **El Kabong** speaking of indoctrination of youth into groups that are slightly less than social? “Your kids have to learn what the state wants to teach them.” Which you then follow with examples that have been shot more fulla holes than the Bonnie & Clyde Death Car. “. . .state teach conservative/liberal propaganda?” Really? Here’s one more chance for you to demonstrate a single instance of The State (you really oughta capitalize it, makes it look scarier) teaching propaganda to any child. So. . .go. Or hell, just show me what words I put into your mouth. No, wait, I take that back. I insist that you do both. > [@nano8track](#): > > The children are not being taught politics. Once more: No, they are not. They **are** , however, being taught to acquiesce to the wishes and desires of those in positions of authority. And if those children continue down that path, then a pastor most assuredly will tell them how to vote. Which translates as (are you ready for it?) politics. Really now, figuring this out is hardly rocket science. ---
**Author:** ![nano8track](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8e8cbc/32.png) [@nano8track](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nano8track)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/107 "2006-09-12T12:08:16Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] I’m sorry, but that is simply preposterous. For one thing, it hasn’t been “suddenly removed,” it’s something virtually all American schoolchildren have never experienced at all. [/quote] Are you a U.S. citizen? I notice that you are posting from Canada. If I’m going to discuss the experiences of American schoolchildren I’d like to know if you’ve shared those experiences. > [@](#): > > **Evolution is fact** Pastor Becky Fischer: **We have the truth** Being really really convinced that you are right is not any grounds to present your views to young children in a public school. There may not be any debate on this topic in Canada, but there is in the US. I don’t think any issue that is debated should involve children in public school until they’ve at least reached middle school and developed some discernment and reasoning skills. Besides science makes a much stronger case when it appeals to someones reasoning ability. Blunt statements in bold type are more fitting for political statements than scientific ones. > [@Zoe](#): > > Isn’t this the same Tennessee that voted Gore into Congress in 1976? And in 1978? 1980? 1982? Didn’t they elect him to the Senate in 1984? Didn’t he win the Super Tuesday Presidential Primary in Tennessee in 1988? Wasn’t he reeclected to the Senate in 1990? And didn’t his pappy serve in Congress and the Senate from 1938 until the 1970’s? Tennessee has a strange way of showing that they are “very conservative.” If they had been “very conservative” in 2004, that map would have been as red as those areas in the Midwest. Voting Democrat in the South 30 years ago is not exactly the same as voting Democrat today. Even 30 years ago there were some voters who wouldn’t vote Republican, because it was “Lincoln’s party”. Thankfully I believe the last of that mentality has died out by now, but I don’t think you should believe that Tennessee was ever a particularly liberal state. Once a person is elected into Congress the power of incubancy kicks in which explains the reelections. However if we were really moderate he should have taken Tennessee in 2000. It’s not like it was a landslide election. On the contrary it was the closest election we’ve had since Hayes was in office. > [@](#): > > Rumor has it that Tennessee is so very conservative that it is about to elect a Black moderate Democrat to the Senate. I hope so. The Republican nominee was Mayor of my city for 2 years and he did a crappy job. Then he “cut and run”. lol > [@](#): > > Generally not a good idea with groups even when it’s conservatives, Southerners, Tennesseans, liberals, elementary schools, Dopers, and Christians and the State. I agree. But I would like to add that if you make a statement like “conservatives don’t want you taking away their guns”, while it’s a stereotype, it’s not completely unwarranted because both the label conservative and the description are considered to be in a political context. On the other hand saying “conservatives are intolerant and narrow-minded” is simply prejudice. > [@](#): > > I was a teacher and each year I would have approximately 200 students that passed through my classroom. How would it be humanly possible to stick with only those subjects that everyone agreed with? And should I do that anyway? One of the things my students most liked were classroom discussions of controversial topics where they were encouraged to express their opinions. It wasn’t my job to indoctrinate them. It was my job to encourage them to think for themselves and to think creatively. Providing a safe way to do that can be tricky. Sounds like an ideal classroom situation. 🙂 Have to head to work, so I’ll save the rest of my comments for later. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/108 "2006-09-12T12:11:00Z")
[QUOTE=nano8track] Pastor Becky Fischer: **We have the truth** [/QUOTE] Except evolution has that pesky evidence on its side. Something that Creationists cannot say, except when they’re lying (which is always, I suppose). ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/109 "2006-09-12T12:48:40Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] Except evolution has that pesky evidence on its side. Something that Creationists cannot say, except when they’re lying ( **which is always, I suppose** ). [/QUOTE] ?? nice prejudice assumption!! Being mistaken because of religious belief isn’t the same as a conscious lie. ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/110 "2006-09-12T13:58:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Pastor Becky Fischer: We have the truth > Being really really convinced that you are right is not any grounds to present your views to young children in a public school. There may not be any debate on this topic in Canada, but there is in the US. I don’t think any issue that is debated should involve children in public school until they’ve at least reached middle school and developed some discernment and reasoning skills. Besides science makes a much stronger case when it appeals to someones reasoning ability. Blunt statements in bold type are more fitting for political statements than scientific ones. What debate?!? The kind where one side has all the facts (evolution) and the other keeps ignoring them (ID, creationism)?!? If this is our criteria for not teaching anything in class, then a lot of things will not be taught on the basis of nutjob objections. I’m sorry but teaching evolution will only be controversial to the wilfully ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/111 "2006-09-12T14:02:28Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] ?? nice prejudice assumption!! Being mistaken because of religious belief isn’t the same as a conscious lie. [/QUOTE] It is when you’re repeatedly shown the facts and continue to spout the same misinformation as if you’d never seen them. And while I’m not convinced that all BELIEVERS in Creationism are liars, I am convinced that all of the leaders of the movement are. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/112 "2006-09-12T14:10:55Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] Except evolution has that pesky evidence on its side. Something that Creationists cannot say, except when they’re lying (which is always, I suppose). [/QUOTE] Why are you talking about Creationism in this thread? There’s nothing in that trailer to suggest that that’s what the children are being taught at Jesus Camp. You’re assuming facts not in evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/113 "2006-09-12T14:16:20Z")
[QUOTE=Lord Ashtar] Why are you talking about Creationism in this thread? There’s nothing in that trailer to suggest that that’s what the children are being taught at Jesus Camp. You’re assuming facts not in evidence. [/QUOTE] It was somebody else who introduced evolution as something controversial. Introducing Creationism is not entirely off-tangent in pointing out that there’s nothing controversial about evolution. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/114 "2006-09-12T14:43:44Z")
[QUOTE=nano8track] If I’m going to discuss the experiences of American schoolchildren I’d like to know if you’ve shared those experiences. [/quote] Except that you don’t want to discuss the experiences of American schoolchildren. Because when you try, it is pointed out to you just how ridiculous you are being and/or have been. Trust me when I say that **RickJay** seems to have a _much_ better idea of what goes on in a public school classroom in the US than you seem to. > [@](#): > > Being really really convinced that you are right is not any grounds to present your views to young children in a public school. There may not be any debate on this topic in Canada, but there is in the US. I don’t think any issue that is debated should involve children in public school until they’ve at least reached middle school and developed some discernment and reasoning skills. Besides science makes a much stronger case when it appeals to someones reasoning ability. Blunt statements in bold type are more fitting for political statements than scientific ones. Non-starter, Ace. You’re discussing, as I imagine you are well aware, evolution vs. creationism (aka truth vs. nonsense) which is (once more) not taught to young children. Remember when you actually conceded this back in the mists of time? Seems like only the day before yesterday. . .oh, wait! It **was** only the day before yesterday. [QUOTE=jayjay] Except evolution has that pesky evidence on its side. Something that Creationists cannot say, except when they’re lying (which is always, I suppose). [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=cosmosdan] ?? nice prejudice assumption!! Being mistaken because of religious belief isn’t the same as a conscious lie. [/QUOTE] You’re intolerant of the intolerant! That makes you even worse than they are! Wow! That just made me feel dirty. I gotta shower now. ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/115 "2006-09-12T15:07:53Z")
I felt bad for the little girl in the third video. Why is it right and proper to teach her that if she enjoys dancing for herself it is wrong and improper? We’re not talking about her accepting anyone or whoring herself out, she feels guilty about dancing for the heck of it. It has to be for God/Jesus or no one. Is that really Healthy at that age? I’m also bothered by hearing the one boy in the clip talking about how at 5 he needed to find direction in his life. At FIVE?!?!!? Dang!! Most people wait until their late teens or even twenties to even realize they need to find somesort of direction and this kid was concerned at 5. That doesn’t sound likely. That sounds like something his parents and the camp would tell him to think. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/116 "2006-09-12T15:30:53Z")
[QUOTE=nano8track] Are you a U.S. citizen? I notice that you are posting from Canada. If I’m going to discuss the experiences of American schoolchildren I’d like to know if you’ve shared those experiences. [/QUOTE] nano8track, school prayer has been unconstitutional in the United States for longer than any child has presently been in school. If you are seriously suggesting that most American schoolchildren have at any time gone to schools where the students are led in official prayers, you’re wrong. If you have evidence to the contrary, show it. You don’t have to be a schoolchild to know that. Nor have you explained why not praying in schools is tantamount to teaching against prayer. I once again must ask you explain this bizarre claim. Does that mean that any teacher who does not show up for class in a basketball uniform is teaching that basketball is wrong? > [@](#): > > Being really really convinced that you are right is not any grounds to present your views to young children in a public school. There may not be any debate on this topic in Canada, but there is in the US. Lots of people in Canada are ignorant of basic scientific fact. Many do not think evolution is fact. Once again: **Ignorance is not a point of view.** We are not talking about a question of morality, like abortion. I am pro-choice but I heartily agree that abortion is a debatable position because that’s a moral judgment. We are also not talking about a scientific issue on which the jury is still out. We are talking about something for which the evidence is every bit as overwhelming as is the existence of horses, something on which every serious scientist in the field agrees. There is always room for debate but, as the old saying goes, you cannot be so open minded that your brain falls out. We do have to agree on some a priori truths at some point. Sure, many, many people do not know that evolution is fact. Many also do not know that the Earth revolves around the sun and that molecules are made up of atoms. That many people do not understand something does not mean we should stop teaching it. If anything it means it should be taught more. At some point, you do have to allow schools the latitude to at least teach science in accordance with what is, in fact, true. That evolution has occurred is simply not a controversy in the scientific community, just as it is not a controversy that light moves faster than sound even if two out of every five adults think otherwise. **Truth is not a “liberal position.”** For that matter, plenty of conservatives know evolution is fact. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/117 "2006-09-12T15:39:26Z")
**RickJay** , that was a superb post. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/118 "2006-09-12T15:58:52Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] ?? nice prejudice assumption!! Being mistaken because of religious belief isn’t the same as a conscious lie. [/QUOTE] No, but a number of the very prominent anti-evolution celebrities have indeed been caught in repeated lies - making claims that have long since been disproven, appealing to spurious evidence, and so forth, even after being explicitly called on it. Why should they care? Their audience is not familiar with the science and doesn’t particularly want it. What it does do is make it crystal-clear that the leaders of the anti-evolution movement don’t believe in what they’re preaching; they’re not interested in finding the truth and it seems a lot more accurate to call what they’re doing “lying” than “being mistaken”. This is one of the things that’s so puzzling to me about the Theocratic Right. It’s so apparent how cynically manipulative the leaders of the movement are; I can’t understand why the followers tolerate it. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/119 "2006-09-12T17:00:22Z")
[QUOTE=Excalibre] This is one of the things that’s so puzzling to me about the Theocratic Right. It’s so apparent how cynically manipulative the leaders of the movement are; I can’t understand why the followers tolerate it. [/QUOTE] You’re too young to remember Barry Goldwater’s statement: “Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice; moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.” Substitute “Christianity” for “liberty” and “a Christian America” for “justice” and you’ve got the mindset. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118/120 "2006-09-12T17:32:15Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Liberals SHOULD be scared. So should conservatives. [/QUOTE] Preach it, brother! People who claim not to mind religion in government are always operating under the unspoken assumption that it’ll turn out to be THEIR religion running things. If certain fundie Christian groups thought that servants of the Goat-Headed God™ were going to become a majority party and start enforcing animal sacrifice in the schools, they’d complain a lot less about the wall between church and state. Everyone loses when fanaticism seizes power – even the fanatics will lose when they in turn are displaced by other fanatics. Sailboat [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-camp-evangelical-christians-taking-back-america/372118.md?page=7)