# Jesus Christ = murderer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 1, 2001, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-murderer/74482 "2001-08-01T15:14:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2001, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-murderer/74482/1 "2001-08-01T15:14:59Z")
My coworker insists that he saw a documentary on the life of Christ on the A&E network. According to him, it stated that when Jesus was four years old, he “struck down” another child, for no apparent reason. This story was edited out of the King James Version of the Bible, as well as all subsequent versions. Can anyone confirm this? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2001, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-murderer/74482/2 "2001-08-01T15:33:23Z")
Well, they would have erased his record as a minor once he turned 18, unless they tried him as an adult… ---
**Author:** ![Opus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/858c86/32.png) [@Opus1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Opus1)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2001, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-murderer/74482/3 "2001-08-01T15:42:01Z")
This story is found in the apocryphal Infancy Gospel of Thomas. It was never “edited out” of any Bible; it was simply never included in the first place due to the fact that it is almost entirely non-historical. Thomas, as well as other noncanonical books, are available [here](http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/gospels.htm). ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2001, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-murderer/74482/4 "2001-08-01T15:43:21Z")
Someone more knowledgeable than I am will be along to give you the particulars on how Biblical canon was determined, but the episode you describe appears in the [Infancy Gospel of Thomas](http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/library/inftoma.htm): > [@](#): > > III. 1 But the son of Annas the scribe was standing there with Joseph; and he took a branch of a willow and dispersed the waters which Jesus had gathered together. 2 And when Jesus saw what was done, he was wroth and said unto him: O evil, ungodly, and foolish one, what hurt did the pools and the waters do thee? behold, now also thou shalt be withered like a tree, and shalt not bear leaves, neither root, nor fruit. 3 And straightway that lad withered up wholly, but Jesus departed and went unto Joseph’s house. But the parents of him that was withered took him up, bewailing his youth, and brought him to Joseph, and accused him ‘for that thou hast such a child which doeth such deeds.’ > > IV. 1 After that again he went through the village, and a child ran and dashed against his shoulder. And Jesus was provoked and said unto him: Thou shalt not finish thy course (lit. go all thy way). And immediately he fell down and died. But certain when they saw what was done said: Whence was this young child born, for that every word of his is an accomplished work? And the parents of him that was dead came unto Joseph, and blamed him, saying: Thou that hast such a child canst not dwell with us in the village: or do thou teach him to bless and not to curse: for he slayeth our children. > > V. 1 And Joseph called the young child apart and admonished him, saying: Wherefore doest thou such things, that these suffer and hate us and persecute us? But Jesus said: I know that these thy words are not thine: nevertheless for thy sake I will hold my peace: but they shall bear their punishment. And straightway they that accused him were smitten with blindness. 2 And they that saw it were sore afraid and perplexed, and said concerning him that every word which he spake whether it were good or bad, was a deed, and became a marvel. And when they (he ?) saw that Jesus had so done, Joseph arose and took hold upon his ear and wrung it sore. 3 And the young child was wroth and said unto him: It sufficeth thee (or them) to seek and not to find, and verily thou hast done unwisely: knowest thou not that I am thine? vex me not. This document was not “edited out” of the King James Bible, or any other Bible, ever. It was never part of the canon. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2001, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-murderer/74482/5 "2001-08-01T15:46:09Z")
If this was ‘edited out’ then it wasn’t just from the KJV but from the canon of scripture generally. I’ve heard of non-canonical books (of dubious authenticity) which have accounts of Jesus as a child killing animals then raising them to life. anyway, think about it; if the gospels are a true account, then it would be very inconsistent with the ‘real’ Jesus, if they aren’t true, it would still be inconsistent with the Jesus ‘Character’ and thus it would be a daft thing to invent and slot in. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2001, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-murderer/74482/6 "2001-08-01T15:47:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > I’ve heard of non-canonical books (of dubious authenticity) which have accounts of Jesus as a child killing animals then raising them to life. That’s one of the signs of a potential serial messiah, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Yersinia\_Pestis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ccd318/32.png) [@Yersinia\_Pestis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yersinia_Pestis)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2001, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-murderer/74482/7 "2001-08-01T15:48:26Z")
I’ve seen medieval manuscripts illustrating this, or similar scenes. The stories are generally from either the Apocrypha (non-canon books of the bible) or are folk-tales. You can read a couple of these stories here: [http://www.gloriana.nu/child.html](http://www.gloriana.nu/child.html) “Edited out of the KJV” is maybe a little misleading–I believe accounts of Jesus’ childhood, besides his visit to the Temple, don’t appear in either the Catholic or Protestant bibles. ---
**Author:** ![evilhanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba8739/32.png) [@evilhanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilhanz)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2001, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-murderer/74482/8 "2001-08-01T15:54:24Z")
Here’s the biography printout from A&E on [Jesus of Nazareth](http://search.biography.com/print_record.pl?id=9170). Murder is NOT among the controversial topics discussed in [Unknown Jesus](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0767023544/qid=996680889/br=1-1/ref), the biography video from A&E at [amazon.com](http://amazon.com). Read it’s description as well. Some people assert that Jesus spent time in the Far East during his early years. Search on “issa”, you’ll find plenty of links. It’ll be difficult to find facts among all the religion, but it’s interesting reading. In any case, it’s kind of silly for you to go around trying to disprove the unsubstantiated claims of your coworkers. [I am an atheist, so I have no vested interest in trying to protect the reputation of a mytho-historical figure, so no Christian-bashing please] ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2001, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-murderer/74482/9 "2001-08-01T16:05:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*anyway, think about it; if the gospels are a true account, then it would be very inconsistent with the ‘real’ Jesus, if they aren’t true, it would still be inconsistent with the Jesus ‘Character’ and thus it would be a daft thing to invent and slot in. \*\* I disagree. If the four Gospels are true, then while the, for lack of a better word, “impetuousness” of the incidents might seem out of character, they wouldn’t be without precedent. God in the OT frequently struck people dead where they stood for various offenses, and Jesus cursed the fig tree in a manner similar to what is described in the Infancy Gospel. God/Jesus also struck down . . . Ananias? . . . for lying. If the Gospels aren’t true, then we can take it as a given that the Gospel writers cribbed from other cultures’ mythologies regarding their gods – the virgin birth, the execution, the resurrection, etc. Given that, it isn’t inconceivable that the writer of the Infancy Gospel cribbed from the stories of bratty child-gods common in the pagan religions. ---
**Author:** ![sjc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@sjc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sjc)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2001, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-murderer/74482/10 "2001-08-01T20:32:33Z")
I suppose you could say that the story of Jesus killing the kid _was_ edited out of the King James Version. After all, the infancy gospel of Thomas was “edited” out of the canon of accepted works way back during the early Roman-Christian period (not an accepted term as far as I know, just the best description I can come up with right now). So it wasn’t edited out during the translation of the KJV but much earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Arken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@Arken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arken)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2001, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-murderer/74482/11 "2001-08-01T22:12:14Z")
Just to clarify things a bit, the infancy gospel of Thomas and all other new testament apocrypha were declared not to be part of the Canon during the first council of Nicea in 325 A.D. Whether you believe the New Testament to be true or are a skeptical atheist like myself, you must realize that ANY AND ALL inclusions and removals during the first council were 100% motivated by the politics of the time and NOT by whether or not any of the texts could be verified as true or false. Some texts of the apocrypha were excised because of their criticisms of Roman culture, because of their attempts to bind Judaism and Christianity together and so on. The time of the First Council was a politically-troubled time for newly-Christian Rome and was definitely not motivated by the search for truth. Of course, I suppose you could, as a believer, argue that it does not matter what the intention of the First Council was because they were guided by God, but if you believe humans have free will then in this case, they used their free will for political purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2001, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-murderer/74482/12 "2001-08-01T23:46:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Whether you believe the New Testament to be true or are a skeptical atheist like myself, you must realize that ANY AND ALL inclusions and removals during the first council were 100% motivated by the politics of the time and NOT by whether or not any of the texts could be verified as true or false. Must I now? It looks like someone here is grinding a pretty damn big axe. Get back to Great Debates where the rest of us don’t have to listen to your ranting. ---
**Author:** ![MrO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/50afbb/32.png) [@MrO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrO)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-murderer/74482/13 "2001-08-02T01:53:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arken \* > **. . . you must realize that ANY AND ALL inclusions and removals during the first council were 100% motivated by the politics of the time and NOT by whether or not any of the texts could be verified as true or false.** All my studies, excluding Sunday School, have supported this. It doesn’t really require much study to uncover the political aspects of religious leadership, past or present. Seems perfectly on-topic to me. Maybe a bit strongly worded, but hardly a rant. It addresses the issue of some things being “edited out” of the Bible. In this case the editing out happened at an early stage in the editing process, so we might use the term “left out” instead. Same thing, different timing. Although I tend to agree that the council was virtually 100% political, personally I would concede that there probably was the odd monk or bishop or council member who actually believed that they were doing God’s work. Still, I think that belief itself was very much political in nature. I think it had more to do with the council members’ ideas on governing the masses and arranging power structures than with their ideas on literal truth. ---
**Author:** ![Tenar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@Tenar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenar)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-murderer/74482/14 "2001-08-02T02:22:44Z")
If you think the stories about Jesus’ putative homicidal tendencies are a little strange, you should see the ones where people are healed by touching either his used diaper or his bath water, including a man who was turned into an ass and restored. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-murderer/74482/15 "2001-08-02T02:56:45Z")
That Master has touched on this topic: [What’s up with the “lost books of the Bible”?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_141.html) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-murderer/74482/16 "2001-08-02T03:04:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Just to clarify things a bit, the infancy gospel of Thomas and all other new testament apocrypha were declared not to be part of the Canon during the first council of Nicea in 325 A.D. According to the \*Concise Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church,\*the canon of the Bible was likely determined at a council held in Rome in 382 A.D., under the auspices of Pope/S. Damasus. He then commissioned his secretary, S. Jerome, to prepare a comprehensive Latin translation, the Vulgate, which became the standard version of the Bible for the Western Church for the next millenium. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-murderer/74482/17 "2001-08-02T03:16:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > God/Jesus also struck down . . . Ananias? . . . for lying. No, that was Peter, and it’s not clear from the passage whether he physically struck Ananias (and his wife) or whether it was their own guilty consciences for lying. The episode is found at the tail end of Chapter 4 of the Acts, and the beginning of Chapter 5, which recounts an attempt by the early church to share all property in common to look after the community: > [@](#): > > [Chapter 4] > > 32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said anyof them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. > > 33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. > > 34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, > > 35 And laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. > > 36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, > > 37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles’ feet. > > [Chapter 5] > > 1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, > > 2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet. > > 3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? > > 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. > > 5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. > > 6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. > > 7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. > > 8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. > > 9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. > > 10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. > > 11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things. ---
**Author:** ![cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-murderer/74482/18 "2001-08-02T15:32:41Z")
What is the consensus among Christians regarding the validity of these non-canonical texts? Wouldn’t the presence of several false scriptures cast doubt on the legitimacy of the canon of scripture? ---
**Author:** ![don\_Jaime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b4bc9f/32.png) [@don\_Jaime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_Jaime)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2001, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-murderer/74482/19 "2001-08-03T13:34:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cynic \* > \*\*What is the consensus among Christians regarding the validity of these non-canonical texts? Wouldn’t the presence of several false scriptures cast doubt on the legitimacy of the canon of scripture? \*\* No more than a three-dollar bill would cast doubt on the legitimacy of the US Mint. Phonies are phonies, and legit’s legit, and never the twain shall mark. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2001, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-murderer/74482/20 "2001-08-03T14:16:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*anyway, think about it; if the gospels are a true account, then it would be very inconsistent with the ‘real’ Jesus, if they aren’t true, it would still be inconsistent with the Jesus ‘Character’ and thus it would be a daft thing to invent and slot in. \*\* I realised shortly after posting it how shallow and unsatisfying a statement this actually is in the hard light of logic. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > **I disagree. If the four Gospels are true, then while the, for lack of a better word, “impetuousness” of the incidents might seem out of character, they wouldn’t be without precedent. God in the OT frequently struck people dead where they stood for various offenses, and Jesus cursed the fig tree in a manner similar to what is described in the Infancy Gospel. God/Jesus also struck down . . . Ananias? . . . for lying.** Sure, as I said above, on reflection I disagree myself too, except I didn’t mention the OT (just the gospels), a fig tree is of less value than a child’s life (by any acceptable standards) and what **Northern Piper** said about Ananias. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-murderer/74482.md?page=2)