# Jesus Christ, Superstar question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 5, 2011, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-superstar-question/595253 "2011-09-05T11:26:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-superstar-question/595253/1 "2011-09-05T11:26:54Z")
I’m asking this here because I don’t want to discuss the artistic merits of JC Superstar, but have a question of it’s historicity. In JC Superstar, poor ol’ Judas is an idealist who is coerced by the evil Jews into betraying Jesus, even to the point where Judas, pure idealist, is forced, _FORCED_ by the evil Jews into taking the 30 pieces of silver. He doesn’t want it, but they insist and twist his arm until he takes it. \* It’s been a few decades since I read the Christian parts of the Bible, but I don’t remember that Judas didn’t want the money, the Jews forced him to do it. Is this something Rice & Weber made up? Is there some sort of tradition about this? Is it in the Bible and I just don’t remember? PS: Yes, I know it’s a musical, not a history lesson. I’m still curious where this specific idea came from. \*Here’s the lyrics: Annas Your help in this matter Won’t go unrewarded Caiaphas We’ll pay you in silver Cash on the nail We just need to know Where the soldiers can find him With no crowd around him Then we can’t fail Judas I don’t need your blood money Caiaphas Oh, that doesn’t matter Our expenses are good Judas I don’t want your blood money Annas But you might as well take it We think that you should Caiaphas Think of the things You can do with that money Choose any charity Give to the poor We’ve noted your motives We’ve noted your feelings This isn’t blood money It’s a fee nothing more Judas On Thursday night You’ll find him where you want him Far from the crowds In the garden of Gethesmene ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-superstar-question/595253/2 "2011-09-05T11:48:00Z")
Firstly, Judas was a Jew too, so “the Jews” didn’t make him do anything. IIRC in the story, Annas and Caiaphas were High Priests cozy with the Romans who didn’t want radical demagogues stirring up trouble and ruining their comfortable positions. Just to launch the debate, [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_Iscariot#Betrayal_of_Jesus) suggests that the motivation for Judas’ betrayal is not a settled point: > [@](#): > > There are several explanations as to why Judas betrayed Jesus. A prevalent explanation is that Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver (Matthew 26:14-16). One of Judas’s main weaknesses seemed to be money (John 12:4-6). A possibility is that Judas expected Jesus to overthrow Roman rule of Israel. In this view, Judas is a disillusioned disciple betraying Jesus not so much because he loved money, but because he loved his country and thought Jesus had failed it. According to Luke 22:3-6 and John 13:27, Satan entered into him and called him to do it. Rice picked the most sympathetic interpretation because it made for better drama (and IMHO fits better with his later suicide, if you accept that particular version of his death). Incidentally, what’s always bothered me about the quoted song is that Judas calls it “Gethesmane” (three syllables), not “Gethsemane” (four syllables). Annoying. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-superstar-question/595253/3 "2011-09-05T11:55:28Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Firstly, Judas was a Jew too, so “the Jews” didn’t make him do anything. IIRC in the story, Annas and Caiaphas were High Priests cozy with the Romans who didn’t want radical demagogues stirring up trouble and ruining their comfortable positions. Fair enough. I should have said “The Jewish High Priests” > [@](#): > > Incidentally, what’s always bothered me about the quoted song is that Judas calls it “Gethesmane” (three syllables), not “Gethsemane” (four syllables). Annoying. Not in the original version, if we’re thinking of the same lyric. I just heard it a few minutes ago (hence the question). He sings: On Thursday night You’ll find him where you want him. Far from the crowds In the gaaaaa-aarden of Geth-sem-an-ee ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-superstar-question/595253/4 "2011-09-05T11:58:26Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Incidentally, what’s always bothered me about the quoted song is that Judas calls it “Gethesmane” (three syllables), not “Gethsemane” (four syllables). Annoying. Which recording are you listening to (or which production are you attending)? In the original concept album, Murray Head plays Judas, and in that song he pronounces the name of the garden as four syllables: /gɛθˈsɛməniː/ ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-superstar-question/595253/5 "2011-09-05T12:07:40Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Is this something Rice & Weber made up? Is there some sort of tradition about this? Is it in the Bible and I just don’t remember? The Bible doesn’t say much about this incident. It’s recounted in Matthew 26:14–16, [which you can read yourself in various English translations](http://bible.cc/matthew/26-15.htm). Basically, all the Bible says is that Judas went to the high priests, asked what he would get in return for handing over Jesus, and was offered thirty pieces of silver. That’s it; there’s no record of Judas’s motivation, nor of the details of the conversation which might suggest same. What Rice has done is to take the rather sparse facts related by the gospels (i.e., who did what and when) and imbued the characters with some plausible motivations. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-superstar-question/595253/6 "2011-09-05T12:30:45Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Firstly, Judas was a Jew too, so “the Jews” didn’t make him do anything. IIRC in the story, Annas and Caiaphas were High Priests cozy with the Romans who didn’t want radical demagogues stirring up trouble and ruining their comfortable positions. > > Just to launch the debate, [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_Iscariot#Betrayal_of_Jesus) suggests that the motivation for Judas’ betrayal is not a settled point: > > Rice picked the most sympathetic interpretation because it made for better drama (and IMHO fits better with his later suicide, if you accept that particular version of his death). > > Incidentally, what’s always bothered me about the quoted song is that Judas calls it “Gethesmane” (three syllables), not “Gethsemane” (four syllables). Annoying. This is a good response, but you are missing one last reference to Judas taking the money, the one in Acts 1. According to verse 18, he took the money and bought a field, and then committed suicide on it. This indicates a very penitent Judas. Matthew, on the other hand, reports that Judas threw the money back into the temple, not taking it. A proposed solution is that Judas refused to actually take the money, throwing it on the ground. The priests, not wanting the blood money, bought the field for Judas and gave it to him. They were using Judas’s money, so one could say that Judas bought it. I’m not going into whether this is true or not, but it is a common explanation, and definitely ties in with a Judas who would try to refuse the money in the play. [This site](http://www.tektonics.org/gk/judasdeath.html) illustrates the common logic, starting with the question “Matthew says the priests bought the field, but Acts says that Judas did. So who did it?” ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-superstar-question/595253/7 "2011-09-05T12:42:00Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > Which recording are you listening to (or which production are you attending)? In the original concept album, Murray Head plays Judas, and in that song he pronounces the name of the garden as four syllables: /gɛθˈsɛməniː/ As did Carl Anderson in the 1973 film and Jerome Pradon in the 2000 TV (I think) production, although Anderson swallows the A a bit in the film (he’s clearer on the soundtrack). ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-superstar-question/595253/8 "2011-09-05T12:57:35Z")
I just read a 2006 National Geographic article about the [Gospel of Judas](http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas). > [@](#): > > The Gospel of Judas is a non-canonical gospel that purportedly documents conversations between the Disciple Judas Iscariot and Jesus Christ. > > It is believed to have been written by an early alternative Christian movement, rather than by Judas himself, and probably dates from no earlier than the 2nd century, since it contains late 2nd century theology. In 180 A.D., Irenaeus, an influential Christian priest, wrote a document in which he railed against this gospel, indicating the book was already in circulation. > > In contrast to the canonical gospels which paint Judas as a betrayer of Christ who delivered him up to the authorities for crucifixion, the Gospel of Judas portrays Judas’s actions as done in obedience to instructions given by Christ. The document also suggests that Christ planned the course of events which led to his death. The Gospel of Judas does not claim that the other disciples knew about Jesus’s true teachings. On the contrary, it asserts that they had not learned the true Gospel, which Jesus taught only to Judas Iscariot, the sole follower belonging to the “holy generation” among the disciples. The (gnostic) idea was that Jesus needed Judas to betray him, so Jesus soul would be freed from his mortal body. That way, Jesus message would have more impact. There is also lots of historical evidence that the specific silver currency named in the bible had [been out of circulation for centuries](http://http://www.christisnotrisen.com/judasrehabilitated.html)by the time Judas was supposed to have been paid in them. Leading to jokes like: Q: “Why did Judas hang himself?” A: “Because he had found out that his ransom money was worthless”. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-superstar-question/595253/9 "2011-09-05T13:46:12Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > As did Carl Anderson in the 1973 film and Jerome Pradon in the 2000 TV (I think) production, although Anderson swallows the A a bit in the film (he’s clearer on the soundtrack). It must have been the film version since I remember Neeley as Jesus. It’s been a while but I definitely remember “Geth-es-mane”. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-superstar-question/595253/10 "2011-09-05T14:18:17Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > This is a good response, but you are missing one last reference to Judas taking the money, the one in Acts 1. According to verse 18, he took the money and bought a field, and then committed suicide on it. Acts says no such thing. It says he bought the field, fell down in it, and was disemboweled. If the disembowelment was a deliberate act of suicide, then that’s a pretty glaring omission on the part of the author. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-superstar-question/595253/11 "2011-09-05T14:26:25Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > There is also lots of historical evidence that the specific silver currency named in the bible had [been out of circulation for centuries](http://http://www.christisnotrisen.com/judasrehabilitated.html)by the time Judas was supposed to have been paid in them. Leading to jokes like: > Q: “Why did Judas hang himself?” > A: “Because he had found out that his ransom money was worthless”. That link doesn’t work for me; I just get a blank page. Anyway, the joke isn’t too funny if you know anything about economics. In the days before fiat currency it wouldn’t have mattered much if coinage was “out of circulation” because it derived its value from its precious metal content. Silver coins are silver coins, whether or not they happen to bear the effigy of the monarch _du jour_. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-superstar-question/595253/12 "2011-09-05T14:37:07Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > It must have been the film version since I remember Neeley as Jesus. It’s been a while but I definitely remember “Geth-es-mane”. I watched the scene just before making my post - like I said Anderson swallows the a, so it comes out a bit like ‘Gethsem’ne’, which I can definitely imagine hearing as Gethse-Main. But giving a careful listen, prompted by this thread, I can say the a is definitely there, but not entirely clear, but also the only vowel not clearly pronounced. [Here, you can listen for yourself and put your pet peeve to rest.](http://youtu.be/_FC8BcAiM-Q) Watching the 1973 and 2000 films though, gives me a question based on it…hope Fenris doesn’t mind my piggy-backing his thread with it… One of the few bits of costuming consistent between the two versions is a square bit of jewellery worn by Caiaphas on his chest (though it’s done differently in the two) is this an actual part of the Jewish priest’s regalia of the era, and if so, what is it called, and what did the real ones look like? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-superstar-question/595253/13 "2011-09-05T14:40:17Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > That link doesn’t work for me; I just get a blank page. The URL got messed up (an extra http). [Here’s a fixed link](http://www.christisnotrisen.com/judasrehabilitated.html). ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-superstar-question/595253/14 "2011-09-05T14:49:58Z")
Anecdote: The pastor visited our kindergartner’s Sunday School class. "Do any of you have a favorite Bible story?’ Our son’s hand shot up: “Yeah! Judas! The part where the guy hangs himself and then he’s cut down and all his guts spill out!” To the pastor’s credit, he didn’t miss a beat. “Does anybody want me to read a gross story?” Of course, they all did. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-superstar-question/595253/15 "2011-09-05T14:50:13Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > I watched the scene just before making my post - like I said Anderson swallows the a, so it comes out a bit like ‘Gethsem’ne’, which I can definitely imagine hearing as Gethse-Main. But giving a careful listen, prompted by this thread, I can say the a is definitely there, but not entirely clear, but also the only vowel not clearly pronounced. [Here, you can listen for yourself and put your pet peeve to rest.](http://youtu.be/_FC8BcAiM-Q) > > Watching the 1973 and 2000 films though, gives me a question based on it…hope Fenris doesn’t mind my piggy-backing his thread with it… > > One of the few bits of costuming consistent between the two versions is a square bit of jewellery worn by Caiaphas on his chest (though it’s done differently in the two) is this an actual part of the Jewish priest’s regalia of the era, and if so, what is it called, and what did the real ones look like? Hijack away–my question’s pretty much been answered (thanks everyone!) so the thread is yours! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-superstar-question/595253/16 "2011-09-05T14:56:34Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > One of the few bits of costuming consistent between the two versions is a square bit of jewellery worn by Caiaphas on his chest (though it’s done differently in the two) is this an actual part of the Jewish priest’s regalia of the era, and if so, what is it called, and what did the real ones look like? It’s just called a breastplate, and yes, it’s roughly historically accurate. As usual, [Wikipedia has an article on it](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_breastplate). The original source is Exodus 28:15–19. In addition to its depiction in _Jesus Christ Superstar_, you can also see Belloq wearing one near the end of _Raiders of the Lost Ark_ when he performs a ritual opening of the Ark of the Covenant. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-superstar-question/595253/17 "2011-09-05T15:05:28Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > That link doesn’t work for me; I just get a blank page. > > Anyway, the joke isn’t too funny if you know anything about economics. In the days before fiat currency it wouldn’t have mattered much if coinage was “out of circulation” because it derived its value from its precious metal content. Silver coins are silver coins, whether or not they happen to bear the effigy of the monarch _du jour_. " Fixed linky. [http://www.christisnotrisen.com/judasrehabilitated.html](http://www.christisnotrisen.com/judasrehabilitated.html) Okay, silver is silver, but the story loses credibility if the storyteller didn’t even get the coinage right and missed the right term by a few centuries. " _Did you hear? Those Enron guys? Apparently they embezzled about a hundred thousand denarii each!"_ ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-superstar-question/595253/18 "2011-09-05T15:06:19Z")
Thanks! Would never have thought to look for it under breastplate (if I could have come up with _anything_ to search for to begin with).