# Jesus gave up a weekend for our sins **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 9, 2004, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244 "2004-04-09T23:10:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/21 "2004-04-10T02:53:05Z")
I am not qualified to make theological pronouncements. But today, on the appointed anniversary of His sacrifice, I sinned. So, I made him suffer today, two thousand years or so, after He took the burden of my sin upon Himself. Trying to apply human accounting systems to the debt and credit of Salvation is pointless. There is a miracle, and you can be the one who benefits from it. You cannot be the one who judges. That, He took to Himself, along with the blame. It isn’t about being fair; it is about divine love, beyond human limits. No, the numbers don’t add up accurately. Tris ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/22 "2004-04-10T03:48:25Z")
Well, I didn’t realize I would spark any interest. Now I feel like I’ve gotten myself into a spot. :o I’ve picked one of the most complex, difficult, absolutely central doctrines of my church to comment on. I’m not as much of a theologian as I ought to be, so I hope you’ll all bear with me. > [@](#): > > Is this really a uniquely LDS thing? I’m not all that sure. I’m not familiar enough with all brands of Christian theology to say. I think we put it in rather more explicit terms, and we use _The book of Mormon_ and _Doctrine and Covenants_ as justification for our unique beliefs. The BoM is actually our main text on the Atonement; we find it clearer and more detailed. (For those unfamiliar with the LDS, we consider both of those books to be inspired scripture.) > [@](#): > > Why did Jesus have to sacrifice himself in the first place for something I am not responsible for? I didn’t even have a shot at a perfect life, I was born sinful. Ah, there you get into another one of our unique beliefs. You _did_ choose to be born and work through this system. I tried explaining this once by starting [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=195587&highlight=human+family), so hopefully the OP there will help you out a bit. (I was genie at the time.) > [@](#): > > Also, you say Jesus was not ominescent on Earth–did he know that he was, in effect, God? He was in close communion with God the Father, he was ministered unto by angels, he could do miracles. But I think that since he was human and went through the veil of birth, he could not actually remember volunteering for the job of Savior, creating the earth, or any of that. He would have had it revealed to him through vision and revelation, I suppose–he would have known it through faith, but not through remembering having experienced it. > [@](#): > > I too would like to hear more about the “infinite” aspect to the suffering. Including any biblical cites about said suffering being more than human suffering. I’m not sure that the assertion Jesus was both “man and god” automatically makes such suffering more than human. I’m not sure it wouldn’t, either. > > And while my OP title may be a bit tongue in cheek, my interest in this is hardly “flippant”. I am interested in trying to understand what so many mainstream christians think about this. Coming up in my next post; I’m off to find a chapter of a book. We can’t claim to be mainstream, though; you’ll have to ask someone else for help there. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/23 "2004-04-10T04:06:53Z")
Contrary to the prevailing view in Western Christianity, the point of Christ’s suffering was not to suffer for the sake of somehow paying a cosmic debt of sin, but to destroy death. Death is an unnatural affliction of humanity that came about because of the Fall, and Christ, by becoming human, giving Himself up to death, and then rising again, destroyed it. The Resurrection, not the Passion, is the most important bit. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/24 "2004-04-10T04:08:38Z")
We kicked this around the block some time ago, and I never got a satisfactory answer: [By What Logic Did Jesus Die For My Sins?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=143111) ---
**Author:** ![Antnee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@Antnee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antnee)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/25 "2004-04-10T04:46:51Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Really? My own personal experience belies that. I’ve shouldered undeserved blame, and while unpleasant, it was much less painful than that day sitting in the wreckage of an aircraft waiting for rescuers to get to me. Wait…Can I assume you survived plummeting to earth in an aircraft, suffered physical injuries and great pain while waiting to be rescued? …and if so…What sort of undeserved blame are we comparing that awful pain to? …and did you specifically fashion your life to accept that blame? ;…no matter the pain? It really doesn’t matter I guess…the reasoning, strategy, timing and physical act of the crucifixion is what most folks argue about; but what I sometimes think is that it had to be arguable. It had to be “over the top” in appearance, in history and in fact; simply to be argued, discussed, debated and kept on the hearts and minds of everyone that heard of it. Simple me… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/26 "2004-04-10T04:49:52Z")
Well, here we go. **QtM** , as I said above, we tend to concentrate on the BoM for doctrine about the Atonement, because we find it clearer and more detailed. So I haven’t got a lot from the Bible for you. Here are a few from the Book of Mormon. Clicking on the link will give you the highlighted verse within the entire chapter. > [@](#): > > Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement–save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more.[2 Nephi 9:7](http://scriptures.lds.org/2_ne/9/7#7) > [@](#): > > 9 For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yea, all are hardened; yea, all are fallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made. > > 10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal esacrifice. > > 11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay. > > 12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.[Alma 34:9-12](http://scriptures.lds.org/alma/34/12#12) Here is a [short referential summary](http://scriptures.lds.org/gsa/atntnmnt), with bunches of links to supporting scripture. Here we have a short and well-known address by Bruce R. McConkie, an apostle. [The Purifying Power of Gethsemane](http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1985.htm/ensign%20may%201985%20.htm/the%20purifying%20power%20of%20gethsemane.htm) describes the Atonement and the importance thereof. And now for a longer description, taken from the 1915 book _Jesus the Christ_ by James E. Talmadge, who was an apostle who wrote two large books which still form a major reference for Mormons. I can’t find the text online, sadly, but it’s over 700 pages long and so I hope four paragraphs won’t be too much (in any case I should think the text is out of copyright by now): > [@](#): > > pp.568-9 > Christ’s agony in the garden is unfathomable by the finite mind, both as to intensity and cause. The thought that He suffered through fear of death is untenable. Death to Him was preliminary to resurrection and triumphal return to the Father from whom He had come, and to a state of glory even beyond what He had before possessed; and, moreover, it was within His power to [lay down His life](http://scriptures.lds.org/john/5/26-27#26) [voluntarily](http://scriptures.lds.org/john/10/17-18#17). He struggled and groaned under a burden such as no other being who has lived on earth might even conceive as possible. It was not physical pain, nor mental anguish alone, that caused Him to suffer such torture as to produce an extrusion of blood from every pore; but a spiritual agony of soul such as only God was capable of experiencing. No other man, however great his powers of physical or mental endurance, could have suffered so; for his human organism would have succumbed, and syncope would have produced unconsciousness and welcome oblivion. In that hour of anguish Christ met and overcame all the horrors that Satan, “the prince of this world” could inflict. The frightful struggle incident to the temptations immediately following the Lord’s baptism was surpassed and overshadowed by this supreme contest with the powers of evil. > > In some manner, actual and terribly real though to man incomprehensible, the Savior took upon Himself the burden of the sins of mankind from Adam to the end of the world. Modern revelation assists us to a partial understanding of the awful experience. In March 1830, [the glorified Lord, Jesus Christ, thus spake](http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/19/16-19#16): “For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent, but if they would not repent, they must suffer even as I, which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit: and would that I might not drink the bitter cup and shrink-nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.” > pp.613 > At the ninth hour, or about three in the afternoon, a loud voice, surpassing the most anguished cry of physical suffering issued from the central cross, rending the dreadful darkness. It was the voice of the Christ: “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” What mind of man can fathom the significance of that awful cry? It seems, that in addition to the fearful suffering incident to crucifixion, the agony of Gethsemane had recurred, intensified beyond human power to endure. In that bitterest hour the dying Christ was alone, alone in most terrible reality. That the supreme sacrifice of the Son might be consummated in all its fulness, the Father seems to have withdrawn the support of His immediate Presence, leaving to the Savior of men the glory of complete victory over the forces of sin and death. The cry from the cross, though heard by all who were near, was understood by few. The first exclamation, Eloi, meaning My God, was misunderstood as a call for Elias. > … > pp.614 > Fully realizing that He was no longer forsaken, but that His atoning sacrifice had been accepted by the Father, and that His mission in the flesh had been carried to glorious consummation, He exclaimed in a loud voice of holy triumph: “It is finished.” In reverence, resignation, and relief, He addressed the Father saying: “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.” He bowed His head, and voluntarily gave up His life. The links are to scriptures. So, **QtM** , it is not the fact of Jesus being God and man that itself made the suffering transcendent and ‘more than human,’ but that by that power he took on an infinite weight of all pain and sin, which no other could have done. In that way he satisfied the demands of justice, so that mercy could come into play. Through the Atonement, both justice and mercy are satisfied. Now, that all covers the suffering and death part of the Atonement. After the three days in question, Christ conquered death for all time and for all humanity by taking up his body again and returning to earth as a resurrected being. Through the resurrection, we will all take up our lives again in the same way and as a free gift. That is, _everyone_ gets resurrected. Salvation is conditional; that’s the repentance and accepting Christ as Savior part–but you get resurrected either way. So, (to comment on **yBeayf’s** remark), both the suffering and the resurrection are part of the Atonement to the LDS, and both are important. ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/27 "2004-04-10T05:03:18Z")
> [@Antnee](#): > > …and did you specifically fashion your life to accept that blame? ;…no matter the pain? Ya know, I don’t think **Qadgop** was trying to equate crucifixion at the hands of the Romans with his plane crash. More of a “physical pain is worse than undeserved mental anguish” thing. Like how they always say “the worst pain is a broken heart”–no, I believe we can all think of some pretty intense physical tortures that would be less fun. I started typing a sentence involving razor blades, salt, and your corenas, but I decided to refrain. I mean, hell, getting kicked in the groin hurts pretty bad. Worse than any broken heart I’ve ever had. On preview, I see that **dangermom** has returned, quotes in hand… Very well then, I must say the Church of LDS has taken a rather sensible approach to the issue. I commend them. I have just about reached the point where I am unable to move any further into the issue and make any progress other than saying “I don’t believe it.” Certainly, if we assume for the sake of argument that Jesus is omnipotent and can suffer the infinite burden of sin, then Jesus’s sacrifice seems to be very commendable. But as I think about it more, did God not create the very concept of sin in the first place? If he were all-powerful, could he not merely erase it from this plane of existence without inflicting it on a martyr? I have difficulty reconciling “all powerful” with “God was required to do such and such.” Also, given that this is an infinite suffering, is Jesus still “in pain” today? Or does my use of mortal terminology merely show that my comprehension of the phenomenon is insufficient? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/28 "2004-04-10T05:08:32Z")
> [@](#): > > In that way he satisfied the demands of justice, so that mercy could come into play. Through the Atonement, both justice and mercy are satisfied. I can’t see how either are even relevant, much less satisfied. You can’t punish some innocent, non-involved person to satisfy your lust for revenge so that you can grant mercy: none of that makes any sense. If you want to grant mercy without asking anything from someone, you just do it. You don’t have to throw in some radnom pagan sacrifice of an innocent person to appease the gods: especially not when YOU are the god demanding appeasement. There is no way to mangle the concept of “Justice” into demanding that some random person must “pay” for wrongs done as if right and wrong were a business transaction. Killing an innocent compounds injustice, not solves it. But the silliest thing about these explanations is that they are ad hoc: i.e. they make up constraints that need to be satsified so as to explain the crucifixtion, rather than the other way around. But if you look at the actual early theology of the people who first came up with the idea that the crucifixtion was important, you find instead a mismash of various reasons for different elements of it. And the main functional element, first explained by Paul, is precisely the sort of pagan idea of a purfication (in this case mostly focusing on the gentiles) via a blood sacrifice. Of course, Jewish scholars are particularly disgusted by this since it seems like a mangled misunderstanding of Jewish tradition, wherein blood sacrifice was not only being phased out, but it was never really the best or most important forms of atonement in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![HumptysHamhole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f0a364/32.png) [@HumptysHamhole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumptysHamhole)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/29 "2004-04-10T05:19:45Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s an interesting concept. I expect you’ll be told that you don’t really understand the fact that Jesus was completely human as well as completely divine. This is a very good point and also I would like to add that while God was on earth as Jesus (fully human) he certainly wasn’t omniscient. If he were then he certianly wouldn’t have experienced so much doubt about his own ultimate fate. Just take a look at his final statements on the cross. Unfortunatly, the OP is difficult to answer without going through the whole Christian story. The problem the OP may have in understanding the role of Christ in Christianity rests in the OP’s original assumptions on life in general: > [@](#): > > then what we are dealing with is an omniscient God who knows that no matter how much pain is inflicted on him, it’s going to be temporary, and in a short time he’ll be alive, and then off to heaven. This really isn’t quite true as I stated above, Jesus wasn’t omniscient (at least while he was here on earth), but the real problem is that it misses the point of the event. > [@](#): > > So where is the extreme deprivation here? Many mere humans have suffered more and longer with plenty of doubt about the outcome of their lives and afterlives. What makes God as Man experiencing pain and death with resurrection following shortly after such a transforming and redeeming experience for so many Christians? Why is it seen by them as such a sacrifice? And here is where I believe you have gotten sidetracked a little. In the Christian tradition in which I partake the main point of the Christ’s death and resurrection isn’t focused on the experience of pain and death as you say (although that is a very important part of it) . The focus is rather on the choice that God made in offering redemption to mankind. We believe that everyone is sinful (sin = behavior contrary to God’s will) and that justice must in some way be served in order to allow humans to be in communion with God. In the OT people would sacrifice animals, perform rituals, and abide by certian rules in order to satisfy or even appease God’s sense of justice. In spite of this, however, true justice was never served and Death was allowed to rule the world (physical and spiritual) as the consequence of continual sin. So - God offered himself/his Son as the remedy to that breach of justice that could never be resolved through the means devised by mankind. That is what is most significant. So. . . if you don’t believe that people can “sin” or that God is a personal being, or that human history is a cosmic drama in action then I don’t really see how you could understand the significance of Christ’s death and resurrection. It has to be taken in context with a whole host of other beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![HumptysHamhole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f0a364/32.png) [@HumptysHamhole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumptysHamhole)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/30 "2004-04-10T05:40:58Z")
and I’m trying to give an example of a story that could explain the significance of Christ’s death/resurrection, so here is a VERY weak one: You (an investment broker) have bilked thousands of people out of hundreds of millions of dollars. You are caught, convicted, and sentenced to life in pound-your-ass prison with a very large and horny cellmate who loves pretty boys. Just before your first day in prison, Bill Gates shows up and secures your release. He also gets your conviction overturned with a deal he strikes with state. He pays off all of your debts including paying back all the people you have stolen from with interest. He also buys you a new house, car and boat, and sets up a college fund for your kids. He does this entirely at his own trouble and expense, and only asks of you not to defraud people ever again. You could focus on the fact that he could afford it anyway. Or you could focus on the fact that a completely innocent person just saved your ass from a lifetime of torment that you deserved while asking for little in return. weak example but to the point. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/31 "2004-04-10T06:05:08Z")
> [@HumptysHamhole](#): > > and I’m trying to give an example of a story that could explain the significance of Christ’s death/resurrection, so here is a VERY weak one: > > You (an investment broker) have bilked thousands of people out of hundreds of millions of dollars. You are caught, convicted, and sentenced to life in pound-your-ass prison with a very large and horny cellmate who loves pretty boys. Just before your first day in prison, Bill Gates shows up and secures your release. He also gets your conviction overturned with a deal he strikes with state. He pays off all of your debts including paying back all the people you have stolen from with interest. He also buys you a new house, car and boat, and sets up a college fund for your kids. He does this entirely at his own trouble and expense, and only asks of you not to defraud people ever again. You could focus on the fact that he could afford it anyway. Or you could focus on the fact that a completely innocent person just saved your ass from a lifetime of torment that you deserved while asking for little in return. > > weak example but to the point. Bullshit. Nobody, not even Hitler or Pol Pot, deserve eternal punishment. A few million years, tops. Besides, Christian doctrine teaches that you are damned for being born human and contaminated with original sin, not for anything you have done. And the doctrine of the Atonement is also nonsense. God created rules to require that He sacrifice Himself to Himself. All religion is garbage–Christianity is particularly toxic. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/32 "2004-04-10T06:14:23Z")
> [@nameless](#): > > But as I think about it more, did God not create the very concept of sin in the first place? If he were all-powerful, could he not merely erase it from this plane of existence without inflicting it on a martyr? I have difficulty reconciling “all powerful” with “God was required to do such and such.” You know, you keep asking me to explain huge chunks of LDS theology that take up whole books on my shelf. Poor **QtM** is going to feel very hijacked at this rate. 🙂 Perhaps you should start emailing me with any other questions. Anyway, no, we don’t think of it that way. If you read my OP of the other thread I linked to, you saw that we don’t think of people in the same way as most Christians–some part of us is uncreated and eternal, with agency to choose. This solves a lot of that whole “problem of evil” thing. We also don’t really think of God as “all-powerful” as in “no rules.” He has rules, and he follows them. The main rule is that we get to choose freely. Another is that justice exists–I tend to think of this simply as a condition of the universe, almost like gravity or something (I don’t know how other Mormons do). The goal is to help us to grow up and become like Him, if we want to. In order to do that, we have to go through things that aren’t easy–in a lame comparison, say that you’re in basic training for heaven. Basic training in the military involves pain and hard work, but it prepares you and makes you stronger, and there’s no way to gain that strength without some trouble. Becoming like God requires pain and hard work, but there’s no way around it if you’re going to get there. He’s not giving you the test because He wants to know the answers, but because you need to know the material. > [@](#): > > Also, given that this is an infinite suffering, is Jesus still “in pain” today? Or does my use of mortal terminology merely show that my comprehension of the phenomenon is insufficient? First question: no. Second question: probably. Mormons tend to feel that we can’t really understand or grasp the Atonement completely. I can’t say I do. And hey, as long as I’m talking to **nameless** : > [@](#): > > I think Christ’s innocence is irrelevant. I’m sure there are a host disorders that occur immediately after birth that cause incredible pain to the infant and are fatal…So how is Christ any better than that kid? I contend that Christ still gets to live forever in heaven. That kid doesn’t. Wasn’t baptized and probably didn’t have time to accpet Jesus as his lord and savior. Just to fill that in (in case you care), Mormons also believe that children are innocent and go to heaven if they die. And, people have the chance to learn more after death–so someone who dies with no knowledge of Christ gets that opportunity later on. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/33 "2004-04-10T06:30:08Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Apos** _ > There is no way to mangle the concept of “Justice” into demanding that some random person must “pay” for wrongs done as if right and wrong were a business transaction. Killing an innocent compounds injustice, not solves it. Which was the point of the quote **dangermom** provided (labelled Alma 34:9-12 – follow the link and read the whole chapter). > [@](#): > > And the main functional element, first explained by Paul, is precisely the sort of pagan idea of a purfication (in this case mostly focusing on the gentiles) via a blood sacrifice. Of course, Jewish scholars are particularly disgusted by this since it seems like a mangled misunderstanding of Jewish tradition, wherein blood sacrifice was not only being phased out, but it was never really the best or most important forms of atonement in the first place. Um, blood sacrifice wasn’t exactly “phased out”. It was extinguished by force when the Romans levelled the Jewish temple in 70 A.D. Not surprisingly **Apos** I disagree with your assessment of “the people who first came up with the idea that the crucifixtion was important.” Christians believe not that Jesus was a blood sacrifice (and **dangermom** ’s quote–specifically verse 10–speaks directly to that point). We believe that the blood sacrifice was a foreshadowing of Christ and his one great sacrifice. Jesus didn’t come down because his Father said “yer gonna take a whippin’ boy.” Jesus’ role was as Creator, Savior, and Judge. He organized the world and as such was willing to do whatever was necessary to offer us salvation with him. His motivation was from love, to do what would most help us to become better. That “what” included somehow [experiencing the agony of all the sin](http://scriptures.lds.org/alma/7/12#12) of man and suffering of mortal creation (all sickness, all infirmity, etc.)–it included becoming “at one” with his creation (hence [“At-One-Ment”](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=atonement)) that he could know from [experience what it is like to be mortal](http://scriptures.lds.org/heb/4/15#15) and hence truly offer [to help even the least of us](http://scriptures.lds.org/heb/2/18#18). > [@](#): > > And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities. That whole work provided us with an environment where we could experience good and evil and learn to choose to be like God. The Atonement offers to us the means by which we can overcome the choices to become unlike God _if we so choose_. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/34 "2004-04-10T06:45:05Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > That, He took to Himself, along with the blame. It isn’t about being fair; it is about divine love, beyond human limits. If this is true, that He died for _our_ sins and took all the blame for them, then how is it that we still have Hell? How can I be condemed to everlasting torment by this ‘loving’ God for the horrible sin of not really caring all that much about this God _ **if** _ my sins have already been paid for by this God’s Son? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/35 "2004-04-10T10:08:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Which was the point of the quote dangermom provided (labelled Alma 34:9-12 – follow the link and read the whole chapter). So, let me get this straight. I say that something makes no sense, and you point me what is essentially just a restatement of what I don’t think makes any sense. In fact, it makes even less sense. Verses 11 and 12 of what dm posted seem to not only directly contradict how other sects of Christianity see things, but also follow a logic like this: 1. Can anyone else take on the punishment of/atone for another? Nope. 2. Therefore an infinate atonement is required for the entire world, which, wadda ya know, God will take upon himself. 3. How that works out exactly we won’t say, but the word infinite is in there, so nyah nyah, try to reason with that, suckers. Not only that, but the Torah seems to directly contradict, again and again, the idea that anyone can vicariously atone for another, seeing this idea as essentially pagan and antithetical to Jewish teachings. Ezekiel says instead that repentance provides full forgiveness for sin, and nowhere does he say anything about a special extra infinate sacrifice being necessary to make the whole thing workable. > [@](#): > > Um, blood sacrifice wasn’t exactly “phased out”. It was extinguished by force when the Romans levelled the Jewish temple in 70 A.D. Not so. The Prophets in the Torah tell the Jewish people that sin sacrifices are basically becoming a means to lead the Jewish people astray: that they are looking more and more to the pagan’s bloody glee in sacrifice to solve every problem, instead of focusing on the more important forms of atonement. They say that contrite prayer should replace the sacrificial system long before Christianity crops up, and that this will remain until the messianic age (which clearly has not yet come). > [@](#): > > Christians believe not that Jesus was a blood sacrifice (and dangermom’s quote–specifically verse 10–speaks directly to that point). We believe that the blood sacrifice was a foreshadowing of Christ and his one great sacrifice. No offense meant, but the LDS’s take on things hardly speaks for what all “Christians” believe, and shouldn’t pretend to. Probably just a typo here. Evangelicals do believe that Christ’s death had to be just that: a sacrifice of life, necessitated by the demands of a blood sacrifice (nevermind the altar, apparently, nevermind that sin sacrifices only atone for minor sins, or that any sort or even hint of human sacrifice is strongly condemned throughout the Scriptures). Regardless, you seem to be denying what I say, and then going back and repeating it again. What “the” blood sacrifice? Blood sacrifice was a system of ritual atonement for unintentional sins, not a singular element or event. And if Christ sacrificed himself to atone for the unredeemable world, then we are right back where I left off: why was any of the drama neccesary or relevant to forgiveness? Why must there be an atonement made beyond what mortal men can make themselves? How can anyone atone for another’s failings? What sort of crazy system of “justice” would demand that? ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/36 "2004-04-10T12:25:34Z")
To me, from a more or less Methodist point of view, the worst piece of Christ’s suffering came from his (voluntary) separation from God. Yes, he knew it was “only a weekend” but the symbolism of it was much more significant. or to quote the footnotes from my Bible, in reference to Mathew 26:39 which reads: And going a little farther he threw himself on the ground and prayed," My Father,if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet not what I want but what you want."(NRSV). The _cup_ of which Jesus spoke has been the subject of much discussion, One school of thought says that Jesus prayed for some other way to save sinners than for him to die. But Calvary was God’s only way, and Jesus accepted it without hesitation or qualification(cf. “not what I want but what you want”) Others hold that Jesus always prayed according to the will of the Father. In his humanity he feared that Satan might kill him in the garden of Gethsemane before he made atonement on the cross. Thus, he was prepared to die in the garden, if the Father so willed. His prayer was answered; he was able to go to Calvary. The most likely view is that Jesus, knowing what suffereing eternal death meant, shrank from the immininent experience of bearing the sins of the world, because the Father would turn his face from him when he became sin for us(cf. 2 Corinthinians 5:21 In this view, the _cup_ meant separation from the Father (cf Matthew 27:46," My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"). He left the garden victoriously. ---
**Author:** ![Newton\_meter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/57b2e6/32.png) [@Newton\_meter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Newton_meter)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/37 "2004-04-10T12:36:07Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > If this is true, that He died for _our_ sins and took all the blame for them, then how is it that we still have Hell? How can I be condemed to everlasting torment by this ‘loving’ God for the horrible sin of not really caring all that much about this God _ **if** _ my sins have already been paid for by this God’s Son? That’s an awfully Southparkian view of hell. Another view holds that there isn’t any difference between “condemned to everlasting torment” and “not really caring all that much about this God”. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/38 "2004-04-10T12:54:45Z")
Yeah, but the official literature on the place paints it as a place of physical _torment._ I’d be happy if it were wrong, though. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/39 "2004-04-10T15:07:07Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Really? My own personal experience belies that. I’ve shouldered undeserved blame, and while unpleasant, it was much less painful than that day sitting in the wreckage of an aircraft waiting for rescuers to get to me. Try something else here. Would you voluntarily get into an an airplane if the same conditions existed that would result in your plane crashing just as before? No? How about if in some convoluted way your sacrifice would result in solving **elfbabe’s** acne problem? I guess not. How about if it would save the life of **elfbabe’s** unborn child ? Stupid questions I agree, but nevertheless food for thought in trying to put the cross in some sort of perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/40 "2004-04-10T15:31:42Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > food for thought in trying to put the cross in some sort of perspective. Which is what I am trying to grasp here. Lots of interesting input above. It looks like I’ll be using the weekend to mull over this stuff. And **nameless** has it right. My plane crash was just an illustration of physical pain being worse than the suffering of pure mental anguish (for me). And many thanks to **Dangermom** for spearheading the LDS perspective here, but I fear I can barely wrestle with the standard New Testament info. Adding a whole 'nuther Testament at this point is going to be beyond my meager powers of comprehension. At least this weekend. 😃 So far **Eureka** ’s implication of the “separation from the divine” strikes the strongest chord with me. But this topic is gonna take some mental energy! Thanks all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244.md?page=3)