# Jesus gave up a weekend for our sins **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 9, 2004, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244 "2004-04-09T23:10:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/121 "2017-04-16T16:47:25Z")
Well, it’s been 13 years since I started this thread, and I still don’t find any of the arguments put forth as to why Jesus’ suffering was more special than any other individual’s to be convincing. Perhaps that’s because I lack the ‘belief’ gene. But I’ve certainly found the discussion to be interesting. Thanks to all who’ve contributed, back then and more recently. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2017, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/122 "2017-04-16T16:59:00Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > The late, great **Polycarp** gave a lovely explanation how Christianity was not polytheistic. I didn’t buy it. What was it? ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/123 "2017-04-16T17:21:04Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > The late, great **Polycarp** gave a lovely explanation how Christianity was not polytheistic. I didn’t buy it. > > I have been here too long. I do miss **Polycarp**. ---
**Author:** ![Fluffy\_PickleSniffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/77aa72/32.png) [@Fluffy\_PickleSniffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fluffy_PickleSniffer)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/124 "2017-04-16T17:41:29Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > What was it? Was it [this thread?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=296652) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/125 "2017-04-17T02:04:24Z")
No, it was one devoted to explaining the Trinity and how it wasn’t polytheism. However, as I have no problem with polytheism conceptually, I wasn’t convinced. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/126 "2017-04-17T10:44:30Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > No, it was one devoted to explaining the Trinity and how it wasn’t polytheism. However, as I have no problem with polytheism conceptually, I wasn’t convinced. Well, look, as a Jew, I have no problem with polytheism conceptually. Like, if I meet a guy who worships Poseidon – the god of oceans and earthquakes, the brother to Hades and Zeus, the blood relative of wise Apollo and mighty Heracles – then I’m going to say _“well, my holy book forbids the worship of other gods,”_ and he can reply _“well, maybe your book is wrong,”_ and I can say, _“well, maybe, but I don’t think so.”_ And likewise if I meet a guy who worships Thor and talks a lot about Odin, or if I meet a guy who worships no gods at all: I can say _“but my holy book,”_ and he can respond with a brisk _“well, maybe your book is a pack of lies.”_ I don’t have a conceptual problem with polytheism; it can simply be the conclusion of someone working from a different starting point. I only have a conceptual problem with someone who says _“Oh, hey, I agree with everything in your holy book, which is also my holy book; also, I worship God Junior – who is the son of God Senior, and doesn’t know everything his dad knows, and has conversations with the big guy and wills different things than his father does.”_ So if you could relay a link to that argument, I’d sure appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/127 "2017-04-17T15:02:59Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > As for why his death is a sacrifice, you guys assume that he knows he will go to heaven. But that’s not what scripture says. He says “My God, my God, why have you foresaken me?” And he goes on and on about faith. Jesus doesn’t know, he has faith. Anglican theologian N.T. Wright has an interesting view on this, which basically states (if I can recall it correctly) that Jesus did not know of his divinity during his life, but instead knew of His calling. His calling tended to lead Him into instances where He was doing things that only God could do (forgiving sins, for instance). And therefore, while He was doing ministry, He knew he was doing some incredible things, things that only God has the power to do, but wasn’t aware of how His own story would end. So He thought the cross may have been the end for Him. Now Wright says it far more eloquently than I just did, but I think he is alluding to what you are alluding to there. Also wanted to poke in just to say I’d like to see **Polycarp** ’s post as well, because I do enjoy everything that he wrote. My view on the ‘is Christianity mere polytheism’ question is that the Trinity is a mystery to me and I’m fine with the begotten, not made, part. I guess I kind of see it like Dr. Manhattan in Watchmen. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/128 "2017-04-17T15:12:10Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Anglican theologian N.T. Wright has an interesting view on this, which basically states (if I can recall it correctly) that Jesus did not know of his divinity during his life, but instead knew of His calling. His calling tended to lead Him into instances where He was doing things that only God could do (forgiving sins, for instance). And therefore, while He was doing ministry, He knew he was doing some incredible things, things that only God has the power to do, but wasn’t aware of how His own story would end. So He thought the cross may have been the end for Him. Now Wright says it far more eloquently than I just did, but I think he is alluding to what you are alluding to there. That’s a nice explanation…if you pick and choose which “last words of Jesus” fits the tale you are trying to put forth. It seems to me that “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”(Luke 23:43) indicates a surety as to where he was going. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/129 "2017-04-17T15:18:11Z")
He may have only given up a weekend, but keep in mind that it was Easter Weekend he gave up, which is a pretty important weekend. He could have given up some lesser weekend, if he really wanted to minimize things. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/130 "2017-04-17T15:37:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s a nice explanation…if you pick and choose which “last words of Jesus” fits the tale you are trying to put forth. It seems to me that “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”(Luke 23:43) indicates a surety as to where he was going. Paradise still seems to mean death to me. I mean some folks seem assured they are going to heaven. That still doesn’t mean they are fine with dying. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/131 "2017-04-17T15:40:57Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > So the real question is: What did Jesus _lose_ from this experience? Anything at all? If he came out the other side the exact same entity, what did he actually sacrifice? _Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ, Who are you, what have you sacrificed?_ > [@](#): > > (And this debate really begs the question of why _any_ sacrifice is necessary at all, assuming an omnipotent, all-loving God…) I didn’t get logicked into being a Christian in the first place, so I have no brilliant answers about what Jesus accomplished by dying. And the sacrificial framework for understanding it makes little sense to me, I’ll be honest, because it seems to presuppose a Fall that is somehow All Our Fault that a sacrifice will somehow set right. If the story of Adam and Eve in the garden were history rather than myth, there might be an awkward argument for that. But if we’re basically jumped-up plains apes, who bears the responsibility that we are what we are, and why would a sacrifice set it right? Fortunately, I’m perfectly OK with not understanding how salvation really works from a theological perspective. Theology didn’t save me. Christ did. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/132 "2017-04-17T15:46:44Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I didn’t get logicked into being a Christian in the first place, so I have no brilliant answers about what Jesus accomplished by dying. And the sacrificial framework for understanding it makes little sense to me, I’ll be honest, because it seems to presuppose a Fall that is somehow All Our Fault that a sacrifice will somehow set right. I find some interesting atonement theology from Aulen’s Christus Victor theory and Girard’s Mimetic “Last Scapegoat” theory. Both seem to believe that Christ isn’t doing the sacrifice to pay back to God something, but rather to free humanity from what is holding us back (in a very very brief and overly simplistic summary). I tend to like those atonement theologies better (Christ, through His death and resurrection, cuts the chains of sin that holds us back from doing God’s good work in the world). But in the end, yes… it’s all kind of like arguing how many angels can fit on a pin sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/133 "2017-04-17T16:47:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s a nice explanation…if you pick and choose which “last words of Jesus” fits the tale you are trying to put forth. It seems to me that “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”(Luke 23:43) indicates a surety as to where he was going. But that is exactly what ‘Faith’ is - [QUOTE=Hebrews 11:1 NIV] Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/134 "2017-04-17T16:55:15Z")
> [@simster](#): > > But that is exactly what ‘Faith’ is - No-that’s what “picking the verse that backs your beliefs” is. In one story he is full of doubt-just like a human! In another story he knows where he is going _and_ he knows where is companion is going-because he is God! Because there is no reconciling the two narratives theologians like the one previously mention dwell on one and ignore the other. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/135 "2017-04-17T17:10:09Z")
Actually Wright does discuss the paradise quote, but usually in the context of discussing ‘the end’ - in that paradise isn’t when the new heavens & the new earth are created (and come together). The life after the life after death, so to speak. And ‘paradise’ is not resurrection. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/136 "2017-04-17T17:15:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > He may have only given up a weekend, but keep in mind that it was Easter Weekend he gave up, which is a pretty important weekend. He could have given up some lesser weekend, if he really wanted to minimize things. Well, most of the other long weekends involve bbq’s and some sort of fireworks. Can you blame him for not wanting to miss out on those? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/137 "2017-04-17T17:16:07Z")
“Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”(Luke 23:43) . Jehovah’s Witnessed New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures moves the comma, so the quote reads “Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.” ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/138 "2017-04-17T17:20:32Z")
Not to necessarily turn this into a discussion N.T. Wright’s works, but in “Jesus’ Self-Understanding”, he writes: > [@](#): > > My case has been, and remains, that Jesus believed himself called to do and be things which, in the traditions to which he fell heir, only Israel’s God, YHWH, was to do and be. I think he held this belief both with passionate and firm conviction and with the knowledge that he could be making a terrible, lunatic mistake. I do not think this in any way downplays the signals of transcendence within the Gospel narratives. And I think that’s what **BigT** was alluding to. Now you can disagree with that all you want, but I was trying to see if that is what **BigT** ’s argument was. To add, I think Wright’s view is more on the mark for me than not… but I still vacillate between positions on Jesus’s self-awareness of His divinity. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/139 "2017-04-17T17:28:38Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Props to **gobear** for introducing me to this concept. I admit it’s made me think. > > Essentially if the Trinitarian view is taken when discussing Christ’s Passion and Resurrection, then what we are dealing with is an omniscient God who knows that no matter how much pain is inflicted on him, it’s going to be temporary, and in a short time he’ll be alive, and then off to heaven. > > So where is the extreme deprivation here? Many mere humans have suffered more and longer with plenty of doubt about the outcome of their lives and afterlives. What makes God as Man experiencing pain and death with resurrection following shortly after such a transforming and redeeming experience for so many Christians? Why is it seen by them as such a sacrifice? For one resurrection was a matter of faith, as Jesus had to suffer everything that man (humans) had to, ‘so no one can boast’ (that they did anything beyond Jesus). So it was on faith alone that Jesus died in hope of resurrection, even feeling forsaken by the Father on the cross. It is that very path God asks us to travel, on faith, not on assurances. And Jesus brief time in death speaks to the temporary nature of it for those who believe. Paul writes about it later. Since it is written that no-one can claim anything over Jesus, it is a good thing that it was only 3 days (or a weekend). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244/140 "2017-04-17T17:43:49Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > For one resurrection was a matter of faith, as Jesus had to suffer everything that man (humans) had to, ‘so no one can boast’ (that they did anything beyond Jesus). 1. He didn’t have it _that_ rough when he was on earth-millions throughout history had it much rougher. Maybe if he had gotten reincarnated a few hundred times throughout history he might begin to get a glimpse of what some have to go through, but one short lifetime as a healthy male with a group of followers to worship you, with a bad spell near the end? Cry me a river. 2. Where is it written what he went through during his “death”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-gave-up-a-weekend-for-our-sins/239244.md?page=8)