# Jesus' half-siblings **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [July 23, 2018, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-half-siblings/818437 "2018-07-23T15:04:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-half-siblings/818437/21 "2018-07-26T00:34:39Z")
OK, that’s definitely not the same word, which pretty much kills that argument. I’m almost certain that I saw them described as “sisters” somewhere, but I guess it must not have been in a standard translation, because looking down that list, I’m seeing a lot of “relative” and “cousin”, a few “kinswoman”, a couple of “aunt”, and a “krovah” (whatever that is), but no “sister”. ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-half-siblings/818437/22 "2018-07-26T01:15:38Z")
Notre Dame de Lourdes Catholic School was a long time ago, but I distinctly remember being taught that Elizabeth was Mary’s “kinswoman,” with no other description attached. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-half-siblings/818437/23 "2018-07-26T03:48:23Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Got a cite for that last sentence? It’s not a claim I remember seeing before (though I agree with the rest of what you wrote); and Matthew (i.e. whoever wrote the gospel) seems to have [used Greek sources](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Matthew#Authorship_and_sources). There is an ancient tradition that the first version of _Matthew_ was written in Aramaic and was older than _Mark_. But I believe it’s very much a minority position, today. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-half-siblings/818437/24 "2018-07-26T16:58:00Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Incidentally, I was refreshing my memory as to what Matthew actually says about the matter, and I noticed this: > “Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: and knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus” (Matt. 1:24, 25). > > I think that’s a pretty clear message that they did have normal marital relations after Jesus’ birth. Of course it doesn’t necessarily mean that they had children together, (although they probably did), but it certainly puts paid to the theory of Mary’s perpetual virginity. You would think so, and most Christian traditions interpret it that way, but Roman Catholics are aware of that passage and don’t believe that it implies the couple “knew” each other after Jesus’ birth; it only confirms that they didn’t do it _before_ he was born. I had an RC explain it to me once and they could probably do better justice to the argument, but to me it sounded implausible. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-half-siblings/818437/25 "2018-07-26T18:57:15Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > It was mentioned in religion class at Catholic High that the disciples wrote in Greek, and it was pretty crummy Greek with long run on sentences. In fact, punctuation wasnt commonly used until the 7th thru 15th centuries. Even Caesar wrote in long run on sentences. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-half-siblings/818437/26 "2018-07-26T19:04:53Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Very few of the disciples wrote anything. Two gospels are attributed to disciples, Matthew and John, and John’s gospel having appeared much later than the others is often attributed to _his_ disciples. I don’t recall any of the Gospel writers being accused of having crummy Greek. (Other books attributed to Jesus’ disciples include the two epistles of Peter, possibly one from Jude, and then three epistles and the book of Revelation from John who wrote the Gospel. I think the book of James was written by Jesus’ (half-) brother James, who is not counted among the original twelve. Even John, who most modern scholars think was responsible for the Gospel bearing his name, very likely dictated that Gospel to his followers, who also edited it. The authorship of the Gospel of Matthew comes from tradition that begins with Papias of Hierapolis (c. AD 100–140), an early bishop and Apostolic Father. I consider it possible that Matthew had a hand in it. If so, I very much doubt he wrote it by hand himself. If anything Matthew might have had a hand in compiling the Q source, which was used for Mark, which Matthew cribbed from. In other words, Matthew might have written down some of Q, gave it to Mark, and then later used his name for his version, which was not actually written by Matthew. Actually, very few ancients wrote letters and such themselves. Caesar was a known exception. Most used scribes or secretaries. ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-half-siblings/818437/27 "2018-07-26T19:35:15Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > The Greek term is ἀδελφοὶ. It means brothers, not cousins. > **[Jesus had Brothers?](https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/jesus-had-brothers)** > > Why do Catholics teach that Mary was a virgin throughout her life when the Bible clearly says that Jesus had brothers? Ever been asked that? > Let me offer four r... The Meaning of Brother The first thing to understand is that the term brother (Gk. adelphos) has a broader meaning than uterine brothers. It can mean a biological brother, but it can also mean an extended relative, or even a spiritual brother. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-half-siblings/818437/28 "2018-07-26T22:42:21Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > There is an ancient tradition that the first version of _Matthew_ was written in Aramaic and was older than _Mark_. But I believe it’s very much a minority position, today. _Is_ it a minority position today? (I really want to know.) According to the sources I checked (Here’s [one](https://www.catholic.com/qa/was-matthews-gospel-first-written-in-aramaic-or-hebrew).) the Catholic Church says it was written in Hebrew originally: Papias, 90 CE: > [@](#): > > Matthew compiled the sayings [of the Lord] in the Aramaic language, and everyone translated them as well as he could. Iranaeus, 160 CE: > [@](#): > > Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect And the historian Eusebius wrote, > [@](#): > > Matthew had begun by preaching to the Hebrews, and when he made up his mind to go to others too, he committed his own Gospel to writing in his native tongue [Aramaic], so that for those with whom he was no longer present the gap left by his departure was filled by what he wrote Is that enough to give credence to Matthew being written in Hebrew? Is the Catholic Church in the minority among Biblical scholars? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-half-siblings/818437/29 "2018-07-26T23:45:05Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > _Is_ it a minority position today? (I really want to know.) According to the sources I checked (Here’s [one](https://www.catholic.com/qa/was-matthews-gospel-first-written-in-aramaic-or-hebrew).) the Catholic Church says it was written in Hebrew originally: > > Papias, 90 CE: > > Iranaeus, 160 CE: > > And the historian Eusebius wrote, > > Is that enough to give credence to Matthew being written in Hebrew? Is the Catholic Church in the minority among Biblical scholars? > **[Hebrew Gospel hypothesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Gospel_hypothesis)** > > The Hebrew Gospel hypothesis (proto-Gospel hypothesis or Aramaic Matthew hypothesis) is that a lost gospel, written in Hebrew or Aramaic, predated the four canonical gospels. In the 18th and early 19th century several scholars suggested that a Hebrew proto-gospel (a so-called Ur-Gospel) was the main source or one of several sources for the canonical gospels. This theorizing would later give birth to the two source-hypothesis that views Q as a proto-gospel but believes this proto-gospel to have be... ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-half-siblings/818437/30 "2018-07-27T00:05:36Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > _Is_ it a minority position today? (I really want to know.) According to the sources I checked (Here’s [one](https://www.catholic.com/qa/was-matthews-gospel-first-written-in-aramaic-or-hebrew).) the Catholic Church says it was written in Hebrew originally: > … > Is that enough to give credence to Matthew being written in Hebrew? Is the Catholic Church in the minority among Biblical scholars? Now my curiosity is piqued. I don’t recall ever encountering the theory that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic before this thread. But I’m not Catholic and have not heard/read any specifically Catholic teachings on the subject. Wikipedia’s [article on the Gospel of Matthew](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Matthew) doesn’t say anything about it having possibly been originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic, beyond “a few scholars hold that some of [the author’s sources] may have been Greek translations of older Hebrew or Aramaic sources.” But then I found that this page had a “See also” link to an article about the “[Hebrew Gospel hypothesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Gospel_hypothesis)”: > [@](#): > > The Hebrew Gospel hypothesis (or proto-Gospel hypothesis or Aramaic Matthew hypothesis) is a group of theories based on the proposition that a lost gospel in Hebrew or Aramaic lies behind the four canonical gospels. It is based upon an early Christian tradition, deriving from the 2nd-century bishop Papias of Hierapolis, that the apostle Matthew composed such a gospel. Papias appeared to say that this Hebrew or Aramaic gospel was subsequently translated into the canonical gospel of Matthew, but modern studies have shown this to be untenable. Modern variants of the hypothesis survive, but have not found favour with scholars as a whole. ETA: Posted before I saw **DrDeth** ’s post above with the same link. ---
**Author:** ![Patx2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/73ab20/32.png) [@Patx2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patx2)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-half-siblings/818437/31 "2018-07-27T00:08:37Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Wasn’t Elizabeth her mother’s sister? I thought she was her cousin, but religion class was a very long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-half-siblings/818437/32 "2018-07-27T03:55:21Z")
In other words, Matthew may have written a gospel in Hebrew or Aramaic, but the canonical text we know as the “Gospel of Matthew” is not a translation of that gospel, and that gospel (if it ever existed) is now lost. And (wildly speculative) it’s possible that it might be the same now-lost text that we identify as “Q”, which underlies (canonical) Matthew and Luke. ---
**Author:** ![fedman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fedman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-half-siblings/818437/33 "2018-07-27T14:55:51Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > The non-canonical books are even iffier than the New Testament on historical matters. > > OTOH, there’s a somewhat respectable anecdote by Josephus [referring](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus#James_the_brother_of_Jesus) to “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James”. Given that Josephus was a contempory and provides names of attested-to people in the same passage, it’s fairly likely that Jesus did have an actual brother named Jesus (who was also the head of the Jerusalem Christians). > > Now, whether this was a half-brother or a full brother is not known for certain. But given the circumstances and other mentions, the odds on being a full brother seem to be somewhat high. there are many contemporary historians who question the accuracy of Josephus ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-half-siblings/818437/34 "2018-07-27T15:15:36Z")
> [@fedman](#): > > there are many contemporary historians who question the accuracy of Josephus Yes, but not in places such as this, where the mention of Jesus is merely an aside. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-half-siblings/818437/35 "2018-07-27T19:33:39Z")
> [@fedman](#): > > there are many contemporary historians who question the accuracy of Josephus Name them. By “contemporary” you mean contemporary with Josephus? Or Modern? Because Josephus is about all we have and Tacticus. Here’s the wiki article on Josephus: > **[Josephus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus)** > > Flavius Josephus\[a\] (/dʒoʊˈsiːfəs/; Greek: Ἰώσηπος, Iṓsēpos; c. AD 37 – c. 100) was a Roman–Jewish historian and military leader. Best known for writing The Jewish War, he was born in Jerusalem—then part of the Roman province of Judea—to a father of priestly descent and a mother who claimed royal ancestry. > He initially fought against the Roman Empire during the First Jewish–Roman War as general of the Jewish forces in Galilee, until surrendering in AD 67 to the Roman army led by military comm... Note the lack of anyone criticizing his accuracy. That is very common, so not seeing it here would indicate that in general, Josephus is considered pretty solid. I googled Josephus & accuracy and came up with: > **[Is Josephus Reliable?](https://answersingenesis.org/bible-history/is-josephus-reliable/)** > > One of the most-quoted resources about the world during Bible times is the first-century historian Josephus. But who was this man? Which generally says he is, but he is a man of his times. and then here: > **[The Credibility of Josephus - Magen Broshi @ CenturyOne Bookstore](http://www.centuryone.com/josephus.html)** > > The Credibility of Josephus by Magen Broshi \*The most obvious data for examination, it would seem to us, is archaeological material. In many instances, numerous details provided by Josephus can be checked, including architechural data, and their accuracy confirmed. Such precision, where it can be established, is surprising, especially since the information was set down in writing years after Josephus had left Palestine…In Josephus’s War, much of the data can be proved accurate and much of the rest reliably assumed to be soThe Source of Josephus’ Accurate Data: The Commentaries Undoubtedly, the source of much of Josephus’s accurate data was the Roman imperial commentaries, the hupomnemata, specifically mentioned by him three times in his later works. \* However, yes, it does go on to say that : "Josephus’ tendency grossly to exaggerate population figures is well known. " So by no means is Josephus 100% reliable, but in general, he is considered accurate. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-half-siblings/818437/36 "2018-07-27T21:34:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I googled Josephus & accuracy and came up with: > > [Is Josephus Reliable? | Answers in Genesis](https://answersingenesis.org/bible-history/is-josephus-reliable/) > > Which generally says he is, but he is a man of his times. Wow. Someone actually went with a cite to [Answers in Genesis](https://answersingenesis.org/) as a supposedly reliable reference on the Dope? In a Comments thread at that. Google is all well and good, but it does sometimes throw up shite sites as cites. Do you usually otherwise rely on open creationist apologetics in arguments? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-half-siblings/818437/37 "2018-07-27T23:39:42Z")
> [@bonzer](#): > > Wow. Someone actually went with a cite to [Answers in Genesis](https://answersingenesis.org/) as a supposedly reliable reference on the Dope? In a Comments thread at that. > > Google is all well and good, but it does sometimes throw up shite sites as cites. Do you usually otherwise rely on open creationist apologetics in arguments? I just gave you the first two cites. Attacking other peoples cites without coming up with your own is basically saying that you dont have any. Do you disagree also with the 2nd cite? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-half-siblings/818437/38 "2018-07-28T00:18:00Z")
Even if the Gospel of Matthew (as we know it today) was originally written in Greek, the author’s first language was probably Aramaic. So he might have been using some words differently than a native Greek speaker would have. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-half-siblings/818437/39 "2018-07-28T02:32:27Z")
Note the the New Testament as a whole is written in a language that is, to classical Greek, roughly what Indian English is to Oxford-University English. And _Matthew,_ especially, exhibits a number of Hebraicisms, as well. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2018, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-half-siblings/818437/40 "2018-07-28T12:28:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I just gave you the first two cites. Attacking other peoples cites without coming up with your own is basically saying that you dont have any. > > Do you disagree also with the 2nd cite? To simply Google a question and then blithely accept the first return _without being able to recognise that as the most prominent Creationist organisation on the Web_ is an appalling way to go about anything. The specific details of the matter at issue are then rather incidental. And no defence for such incompetence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-half-siblings/818437.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-half-siblings/818437.md?page=3)