# Jesus is God. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152 "2012-10-08T23:37:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/21 "2012-10-09T00:13:24Z")
> [@RedRain](#): > > Oblivion wouldn’t be preferable than at least some existence with some joy. You might think so, but you’ve never not existed. I didn’t exist for almost 14 billion years. It’s easy. > [@](#): > > If you didn’t have the possibility of losing a dollar, receiving a dollar would be fairly pointless. Is work pointless because they don’t randomly take money from you? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/22 "2012-10-09T00:13:46Z")
> [@RedRain](#): > > You might think so, but you’ve never not existed. Nonsense; we’ve all “not existed” before we were born, we know exactly what not existing is like. It’s nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/23 "2012-10-09T00:14:04Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Well, you could do it if God wasn’t omnipotent. Maybe He doesn’t have the ability to make a better world. Which brings up back to Epicurus > [@](#): > > Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? ---
**Author:** ![RedRain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ec8ea/32.png) [@RedRain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedRain)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/24 "2012-10-09T00:16:18Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > If God values freedom because we can’t be happy without it, why wouldn’t he value our happiness higher? People claim freedom is more important than happiness, but give a person a choice between a torture chamber and a reasonably decent life in a dictatorship and most choose the latter. > > God could have easily created something far less abusive than hell as an alternative to let us explore our freedom. As an example, Christians believe during the ‘end days’ people who are banished to the dark regions will be banished forever. Zoroastrians believe the evil doers will be banished to hell, but only for 3 days. After those 3 days they will be purified and allowed into heaven. There is no reason the Christian god couldn’t make hell a temporary or painless place rather than a permanent and painful place. > > A problem with religion is they always try to justify an amoral universe being created via a moral god. And you can’t. It wouldn’t be a dictatorship if you knew that God was real. It would be torture to absolutely know that there was a God and you had to do every single thing that He said. That would be a completely empty life, more so than a life in hell. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/25 "2012-10-09T00:16:21Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Which brings up back to Epicurus Don’t get me wrong, I agree. Although if some God did exist, and it created our universe as His best effort, I’d cut Him some slack. ---
**Author:** ![RedRain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ec8ea/32.png) [@RedRain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedRain)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/26 "2012-10-09T00:19:03Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I didn’t exist for almost 14 billion years. It’s easy. > > Is work pointless because they don’t randomly take money from you? How do you know it was easy? You didn’t exist at the time. You’re second point doesn’t make sense here. Money only has value because it can be lost. ---
**Author:** ![RedRain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ec8ea/32.png) [@RedRain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedRain)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/27 "2012-10-09T00:20:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nonsense; we’ve all “not existed” before we were born, we know exactly what not existing is like. It’s nothing. Tell me what it’s like. ---
**Author:** ![RedRain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ec8ea/32.png) [@RedRain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedRain)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/28 "2012-10-09T00:21:59Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT) > > ``` > When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB) > > Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT) > > ``` Much of the Bible is allegorical and not to be taken literally. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/29 "2012-10-09T00:22:26Z")
So I guess we should just take your word for it? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/30 "2012-10-09T00:22:39Z")
> [@RedRain](#): > > Tell me what it’s like. I already did; it’s nothing. You know exactly what is was like yourself anyway; no need to ask anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/31 "2012-10-09T00:23:40Z")
> [@RedRain](#): > > Much of the Bible is allegorical and not to be taken literally. “Much of” meaning “the parts that undercut your argument”. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/32 "2012-10-09T00:23:48Z")
> [@RedRain](#): > > How do you know it was easy? You didn’t exist at the time. Because things that don’t exist can’t exert effort. You’re struggling now. > [@](#): > > You’re second point doesn’t make sense here. Money only has value because it can be lost. Yes. And spending is good. But your boss doesn’t take money from you if you do a bad job. He just doesn’t pay you. Now your boss is God. He pays you in Heaven Bucks™. If you do a good job, you get enough Heaven Bucks™ to get into Heaven. If you do a bad job, you get no HBs and can’t afford to get into Heaven. You don’t need him to send you to the Afterlife Debtor’s Prison (Hell). The only reason for Hell is either God isn’t powerful enough to create a universe without it, or He’s evil and likes torturing people needlessly. ---
**Author:** ![RedRain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ec8ea/32.png) [@RedRain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedRain)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/33 "2012-10-09T00:24:10Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I already did; it’s nothing. You know exactly what is was like yourself anyway; no need to ask anyone else. How do you experience nothing? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/34 "2012-10-09T00:24:10Z")
> [@RedRain](#): > > Money only has value because it can be lost. Money has value because society agrees it has value. And I would argue that if there is an omnipotent god, there is no such thing as freedom. There is only the illusion of freedom. ---
**Author:** ![RedRain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ec8ea/32.png) [@RedRain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedRain)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/35 "2012-10-09T00:25:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Money has value because society agrees it has value. > > And I would argue that if there is an omnipotent god, there is no such thing as freedom. There is only the illusion of freedom. From God’s eye it would be an illusion, but we can never see beyond the illusion, so it’s not really an illusion from our eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/36 "2012-10-09T00:26:14Z")
> [@RedRain](#): > > It wouldn’t be a dictatorship if you knew that God was real. It would be torture to absolutely know that there was a God and you had to do every single thing that He said. That would be a completely empty life, more so than a life in hell. I personally think our morals, behavior and purpose in life stem from evolution, and not from religion. So my perspective on these things is going to be different. Having said that, people do crave security over freedom in accordance with things like Maslow’s hierarchy or terror management theory. Present people with harm and they crave authority and conformity to keep them safe. At our core, we do crave safety over security despite what Ben Franklin said. Being obedient to God would be less of a hell than the christian hell. And again, Zoroastrians believe in free will just like Christians, but their hell only lasts 3 days instead of eternity. You don’t need eternity in hell to have freedom. ---
**Author:** ![RedRain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ec8ea/32.png) [@RedRain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedRain)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/37 "2012-10-09T00:26:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > “Much of” meaning “the parts that undercut your argument”. Meaning most of the Old Testament. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/38 "2012-10-09T00:27:09Z")
> [@RedRain](#): > > How do you experience nothing? There was no you before you existed. I draw a ninja on a napkin. That ninja didn’t exist before I drew it. Like you didn’t exist before your mother’s womb laid down your structure. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/39 "2012-10-09T00:28:43Z")
> [@RedRain](#): > > How do you experience nothing? You don’t, obviously. That’s why it’s like nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/40 "2012-10-09T00:29:07Z")
> [@RedRain](#): > > From God’s eye it would be an illusion, but we can never see beyond the illusion, so it’s not really an illusion from our eyes. Then how did I figure it out? 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152.md?page=3)