# Jesus is God. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152 "2012-10-08T23:37:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/101 "2012-10-09T02:16:30Z")
> [@RedRain](#): > > Hell isn’t a punishment. It’s a home for people who like to do harm to others. They are allowed to leave, they just don’t want to. Sure they’d want to. Logically, if they want to harm others and are allowed to leave Hell, I’d expect them to try to invade Heaven and burn it to the ground. Probably with a God apologizing “sorry, Free Will you know” as they chase the denizens of Heaven around with axes. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/102 "2012-10-09T02:16:47Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Because another belief is less likely than yours? He doesn’t have any traction with us lily-livered agnostic Zen Buddhists, either. Look, **RedRain**. I used to actually have a belief somewhat structurally similar to yours when I was leaving Catholicism but not yet comfortable with the idea that I didn’t believe wholeheartedly in God. I came up with it all by myself, I didn’t have some whackjob of a old-school philosopher to crib from, but basically my logic went like this: 1. God is omnibenevolent–he’s obviously NOT omnipotent, or else there wouldn’t be suffering in the first place. (there was a digression, heavily influenced by D&D, that God was probably technically what D&D would call Lawful Good, and part of that in my little private theology required a universe with rules that were discoverable by science and that God also followed, therefore neutering his ability to intervene even if he might want to.) 2. Individual human freedom to believe or not believe in God is sufficiently important to his own appraisal of his omnibenevolence that he cannot just reveal himself or one set of correct doctrines. 3. Therefore, some individual humans will sin. 4. Any given sin will be, due to the nature of humanity, finite (because our lives are finite). 5. Infinite punishment for finite sin is marvelously, ridiculously unjust. 6. Therefore, eternal hell doesn’t exist, because God is omnibenevolent. 7. Knowing you did wrong and being in the presence of someone whom you wronged and whose approval you care about is uncomfortable. 8. Therefore, someplace like Hell exists, but you can leave when you’ve worked through your own guilt. 9. Knowing you did wrong and being in the presence of someone whom you wronged and whose approval you don’t care about is pointless–you don’t hang around after you bust someone you don’t like in the chops. 10. Therefore, someplace like limbo or the circle of the virtuous pagans exists, so people who don’t feel guilt about their sins but who think God’s a tosser can continue to exercise their individual freedom to do so. Not terrible for a guy coming out of 17 years of smalltown rural Catholicism, I think, but obviously unsophisticated and unsupported by any observation. My point is, you can dress it up all you like, and so can Swedenborg, but it’s a pretty unsophisticated theology and not really compelling to anyone who isn’t already predisposed to believe in a single omnibenevolent but not omnipotent God. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/103 "2012-10-09T02:17:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > [No argument there!](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/93/Buddy_christ.jpg) I need, NEED, _ **NEED** _ one of those! Anyone know where I can get one? ---
**Author:** ![RedRain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ec8ea/32.png) [@RedRain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedRain)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/104 "2012-10-09T02:17:33Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > It’s fortunate for **RedRain** that throughout history the belief with the strongest foundation in reason happens to be the one he was raised in, what are the numeric odds of that? It’s like I won the lottery. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/105 "2012-10-09T02:20:08Z")
> [@RedRain](#): > > It’s like I won the lottery. You don’t feel confirmation bias is likely? ---
**Author:** ![RedRain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ec8ea/32.png) [@RedRain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedRain)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/106 "2012-10-09T02:22:21Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Sure they’d want to. Logically, if they want to harm others and are allowed to leave Hell, I’d expect them to try to invade Heaven and burn it to the ground. Probably with a God apologizing “sorry, Free Will you know” as they chase the denizens of Heaven around with axes. You have a point here. Swedenborg actually describes at one point how they did invade heaven and how they wish to kill the Lord and things like that. I don’t know how to reconcile the two ideas. Perhaps since they aren’t allowed to do those things they then like to be with their own kind. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/107 "2012-10-09T02:27:26Z")
> [@RedRain](#): > > Yes. Why not? It’s just as crazy as thinking it has yet to happen with God appearing in the sky. That’s probably true, but if the world already ended and nobody can tell the difference, who cares if it ended or not? Doesn’t that indicate this is all a bunch of mythological nonsense? > [@RedRain](#): > > But I have a crazy 18th century scientist and his 30 plus volumes of theological works to back me up. This is not the kind of argument you win on volume. ---
**Author:** ![RedRain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ec8ea/32.png) [@RedRain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedRain)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/108 "2012-10-09T02:31:07Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > You don’t feel confirmation bias is likely? Swedenborg was a scientist and I believe that’s why his writings are so appealing to me. He writes in a methodical and scientific way. No other religion I’ve encountered seems so consistent. He explains how anyone who lives according to their religion can get into heaven no matter what their faith. I guess for me the only alternative would be atheism, but I just can’t resign myself to such a belief after having spent so much time absorbing these fantastical ideas of absolute beauty and pure innocence. Life would seem so hollow if I let go of it. I don’t even know if I could survive the switch. I think I would literally die. ---
**Author:** ![RedRain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ec8ea/32.png) [@RedRain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedRain)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/109 "2012-10-09T02:33:00Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s probably true, but if the world already ended and nobody can tell the difference, who cares if it ended or not? Doesn’t that indicate this is all a bunch of mythological nonsense. The whole world ending thing was symbolic and not literal. It was actually speaking of the end of the Christian church and the beginning of the New Church. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/110 "2012-10-09T02:34:30Z")
> [@RedRain](#): > > God values freedom above all things because He knows that we can’t be happy without it. He must allow for hell so that we can be free. I don’t see that making Him a twat. I see that as mercy. > > We couldn’t be happy without freedom. Do you not agree? In heaven, will the people there be happy? Will they have true freedom? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/111 "2012-10-09T02:35:05Z")
> [@RedRain](#): > > Swedenborg was a scientist and I believe that’s why his writings are so appealing to me. He writes in a methodical and scientific way. The problem is that Swedenborg and the Spiritualists who followed him were basically credulous dupes even though they tried to approach their subject matter in a scientific way. Applying a scientific approach doesn’t guarantee a scientific conclusion. If the best you can say about Swedenborg is that his nonsense isn’t any more implausible than a bunch of other nonsense and that he gets credit for trying to make his stuff sound scientific, that’s not high praise. ---
**Author:** ![RedRain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ec8ea/32.png) [@RedRain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedRain)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/112 "2012-10-09T02:37:10Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > In heaven, will the people there be happy? Will they have true freedom? Being led by the Lord is true freedom and the source of happiness. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/113 "2012-10-09T02:39:15Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > The OP is clearly mistaken. Ivanova is God. No, God doesn’t look that good with his clothes off. Don’t ask me how I know, but it involved a paper towel tube. :eek: > [@Czarcasm](#): > > 30 plus volumes of religionist mental masturbation is nothing anybody needs to read… And people have fulfilled that deep need by not reading it for 240 years. I never thought I’d meet a real Swedenborgian. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/114 "2012-10-09T02:39:57Z")
> [@RedRain](#): > > Swedenborg was a scientist and I believe that’s why his writings are so appealing to me. He writes in a methodical and scientific way. No other religion I’ve encountered seems so consistent. He explains how anyone who lives according to their religion can get into heaven no matter what their faith. > > I guess for me the only alternative would be atheism, but I just can’t resign myself to such a belief after having spent so much time absorbing these fantastical ideas of absolute beauty and pure innocence. Life would seem so hollow if I let go of it. I don’t even know if I could survive the switch. I think I would literally die. What does what you feel have to do with what exists? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/115 "2012-10-09T02:40:11Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I never thought I’d meet a real Swedenborgian. …without a Ouija board, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/116 "2012-10-09T02:41:13Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > I need, NEED, _ **NEED** _ one of those! > > Anyone know where I can get one? > **[Amazon.com: Graphitti Designs Buddy Christ Dashboard Statue, White, Red, Gold...](https://www.amazon.com/Graphitti-Designs-Christ-Dashboard-Statue/dp/B000AP5974)** > > From the Manufacturer Our favorite Lord & Savior has returned once again in the form of the ever popular Buddy Christ Dashboard Figure. 5" Inch of the coolest PVC you'll ever see. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/117 "2012-10-09T02:41:23Z")
Flying trumpets and a rising table would do. ---
**Author:** ![RedRain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ec8ea/32.png) [@RedRain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedRain)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/118 "2012-10-09T02:42:16Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The problem is that Swedenborg and the Spiritualists who followed him were basically credulous dupes even though they tried to approach their subject matter in a scientific way. Applying a scientific approach doesn’t guarantee a scientific conclusion. If the best you can say about Swedenborg is that his nonsense isn’t any more implausible than a bunch of other nonsense and that he gets credit for trying to make his stuff sound scientific, that’s not high praise. There’s more I could say about what he writes, but I just find it sort of a waste of time with people who are only half listening and waiting to tear it to pieces. The stuff he writes is so much deeper than any of the other Christian sects. But I guess that’s subjective. It’s amazing the things he writes about, but that’s also subjective. I’m probably just banging my head against a wall posting about it here, but I have nothing else to do. ---
**Author:** ![RedRain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ec8ea/32.png) [@RedRain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedRain)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/119 "2012-10-09T02:44:20Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > What does what you feel have to do with what exists? What I feel is all that exists. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152/120 "2012-10-09T02:44:51Z")
> [@RedRain](#): > > There’s more I could say about what he writes Given how much he wrote it would be sort of a problem if you couldn’t. > [@](#): > > The stuff he writes is so much deeper than any of the other Christian sects. But I guess that’s subjective. It is- and from here it’s not very impressive. > [@](#): > > I’m probably just banging my head against a wall posting about it here, but I have nothing else to do. You could tilt a table or ask Swedenborg to take control of your computer or something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-god/637152.md?page=7)