# Jesus is our sun. Our God's Son. I am not sold on either side of this theory. Sell me, please? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 27, 2018, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-our-sun-our-gods-son-i-am-not-sold-on-either-side-of-this-theory-sell-me-please/809666 "2018-02-27T06:25:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-our-sun-our-gods-son-i-am-not-sold-on-either-side-of-this-theory-sell-me-please/809666/21 "2018-02-27T16:03:25Z")
If we’re going to be going down crazy rabbit holes, shouldn’t we be talking about El-Ahrairah and Frith? ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-our-sun-our-gods-son-i-am-not-sold-on-either-side-of-this-theory-sell-me-please/809666/22 "2018-02-27T16:07:32Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Jesus gives us His name to use with the Father, His power to use, His authority to use, His work to do, and His inheritance to have. Basically Jesus lets us know who we are and have always have been, children of God. Or in short We are Jesus. > > We have forgotten who we are and where we are from, that our source is God, as shown by Adam and Eve. The condition of this world is to live in a illusion of this world, and we are taught by our parents and others that we are simply humans and have to make it on our own and eventually die. Jesus comes to dispel this lie, the lie that prevents us from using our god abilities and accept a lesser type of life. > > Jesus comes many times, and for better and worse usually ends up creating religions around His and Her truth that He has come to set us free of. The Jesus that the OP comes to state is one such child of God, Son of God, who came into this world with the knowledge of who he is switched on, sometimes such a being is considered a starchild, a being that has come into flesh untouched by the condition of Adam, in other faiths such a being may be considered enlightened, and come into flesh the purpose of relieving the suffering of humanity. > > Jesus is one with the Father, and so are we. Though we are in different flesh, we are part of one, and thus God has one child with one spirit (Holy Spirit), which is love. This goes on to explain the trinity which we are all part of the same spirit. > > As for the signs and wonders of Jesus life, yes there will be many for those who seek God. Those people will see the signs and wonders that point them to the direction of truth, but to others it will not be noticed, or of brought to their attention, will be dismissed as foolishness as the illusions of this world will hide it from their eyes. The scripture ‘seek and you shall find’ is part of our god right and a condition of our existence. When we get to the point that things in life, ways of this world, can not answer our questions we seek answers for ourselves, many often look to religions and some may get stuck there, others will evolve to see the greater truth and how God uses even religions to help those who are seeking to go beyond religion. These enlightened beings can also call people out of the illusion of the world. “Thou art God, and I am God, and all that groks is God.” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-our-sun-our-gods-son-i-am-not-sold-on-either-side-of-this-theory-sell-me-please/809666/23 "2018-02-27T16:31:57Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If we’re going to be going down crazy rabbit holes, shouldn’t we be talking about El-Ahrairah and Frith? Or you could just close this embleer thread. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-our-sun-our-gods-son-i-am-not-sold-on-either-side-of-this-theory-sell-me-please/809666/24 "2018-02-27T17:25:59Z")
I knew a douchebag in college who used to write bad Jesus poetry conflating “son” and “sun.” Went on to found a megachurch franchise, get fired from that megachurch franchise for being an alcoholic, and last I’ve heard have his wife file for divorce. So at least there is _some_ justice… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-our-sun-our-gods-son-i-am-not-sold-on-either-side-of-this-theory-sell-me-please/809666/25 "2018-02-27T19:24:03Z")
If I may attempt to speak seriously, the closest I’ve heard to combining Jesus and the sun seemed to be mingled with a desire to combine Jesus and _everything_ essential for life, i.e. “Jesus is the air we breathe” and, less poetically, “Jesus is in the fine-tuning of the universe that allows life to exist”, i.e. existence itself is held up as evidence for the truth of Christianity. I have to say it strikes me as one of the more infantile lines of religious thought, but if you listen to Ray Comfort and his ilk, it’s likely to come up sooner or later. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-our-sun-our-gods-son-i-am-not-sold-on-either-side-of-this-theory-sell-me-please/809666/26 "2018-02-28T05:46:20Z")
There is, in fact, solid evidence that some early Christians conflated sun worship with Christianity: **Tertullian** (3rd century) (Apol., 16; cf. Ad. Nat., I, 13; Orig. c. Cels., VIII, 67, etc) had to assert that Sol was _not_ the Christians’ God. **Augustine** (4th-5th century) (Tract xxxiv, in Joan. In P.L., XXXV, 1652) denounces the heretical identification of Christ with Sol. **Pope Leo I** (5th century) (Serm. xxxvii in nat. dom., VII, 4; xxii, II, 6 in P.L., LIV, 218 and 198) bitterly denounces Christians who worship the sun — “Christians, on the very doorstep of the Apostles’ basilica, turn to adore the rising sun.” Christmas ‘just happens’ to fall on 25 December, the festival of the Birth of the Sun (Sol Invictus). **St John Chrysostom** (“del Solst. Et Æquin.” II, p. 118, ed. 1588) says that Christians deliberately chose to celebrate the birth of Jesus on the same day as the birth of the Sun. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-our-sun-our-gods-son-i-am-not-sold-on-either-side-of-this-theory-sell-me-please/809666/27 "2018-02-28T09:28:59Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > I think the OP has been watching too much [Star Trek](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_Circuses_(Star_Trek:_The_Original_Series)). Watching _Zeitgeist_, [more like](http://www.tracer345.org/zeitgeist.htm)… ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-our-sun-our-gods-son-i-am-not-sold-on-either-side-of-this-theory-sell-me-please/809666/28 "2018-02-28T10:13:20Z")
TZA305, I think what you’re asking is if the beginning of Christianity is someone (or some group of people) taking pieces of various mythologies and putting them together to create the myth of a person named Jesus. This lead them to then make this imaginary Jesus to be the center of a religion. The answer is that the vast majority of religious scholars don’t think that happened. This is the case regardless of what religious beliefs or lack of any religious beliefs these religious scholars have. They believe that Jesus was a real person. What he did or didn’t do is disputed. It’s disputed which elements of other mythologies got attached to Christianity. Whether any of the theological claims of Christianity are true is disputed. The existence of Jesus is not disputed except by a small set of religious scholars: > **[Christ myth theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory)** > > The Christ myth theory, also known as the Jesus myth theory, Jesus mythicism, or the Jesus ahistoricity theory,\[q 1\] is the view that "the story of Jesus is a piece of mythology", possessing no "substantial claims to historical fact". Alternatively, in terms given by Bart Ehrman paraphrasing Earl Doherty, "the historical Jesus did not exist. Or if he did, he had virtually nothing to do with the founding of Christianity."\[q 2\] > In contrast, the mainstream scholarly consensus holds that Jesus was... ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-our-sun-our-gods-son-i-am-not-sold-on-either-side-of-this-theory-sell-me-please/809666/29 "2018-02-28T13:40:36Z")
You want to be sold on Jesus? … please forward 1/3 of your after tax income to SDMB Moderator’s Widow Fund, 30 N. Racine Ave, Suite 300, Chicago, IL 60607 … we’ll get back with you right after you die … ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-our-sun-our-gods-son-i-am-not-sold-on-either-side-of-this-theory-sell-me-please/809666/30 "2018-02-28T14:57:16Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > There is, in fact, solid evidence that some early Christians conflated sun worship with Christianity: > > **Tertullian** (3rd century) (Apol., 16; cf. Ad. Nat., I, 13; Orig. c. Cels., VIII, 67, etc) had to assert that Sol was _not_ the Christians’ God. > > **Augustine** (4th-5th century) (Tract xxxiv, in Joan. In P.L., XXXV, 1652) denounces the heretical identification of Christ with Sol. > > **Pope Leo I** (5th century) (Serm. xxxvii in nat. dom., VII, 4; xxii, II, 6 in P.L., LIV, 218 and 198) bitterly denounces Christians who worship the sun — “Christians, on the very doorstep of the Apostles’ basilica, turn to adore the rising sun.” > > Christmas ‘just happens’ to fall on 25 December, the festival of the Birth of the Sun (Sol Invictus). > > **St John Chrysostom** (“del Solst. Et Æquin.” II, p. 118, ed. 1588) says that Christians deliberately chose to celebrate the birth of Jesus on the same day as the birth of the Sun. I think you’re misreading your sources. Tertullian for example does not conflate sun worship with Christianity, but rather in his Apology specifically says why non-Christians make that error (predominantly from the habit of Christians at the time facing east while praying toward Jerusalem, but also towards the rising sun.) Apologies is actually him talking to non-Christians saying why Christianity is not sun worship. Augustine’s Tract 34 is talking about why the Manicheans believe that Christ is the sun. Unfortunately for your argument, Manicheanism is not Christianity, nor would it have been conflated with such at the time. It was a syncretic religion and Augustine would have known that. I’m not familiar with the Leo text unfortunately. The Chrysostom text you refer to “De Solstitiis et Aequinoctiis” is actually not by Chrysostom at all. It’s an erroneous attribution. Nonetheless, it certainly does draw a parallel between Roman and Christian feasts, but you’ve apparently not read the tract. The whole thing is actually about setting the date according to a calculation regarding the births of John the Baptist and the Annunciation. It goes off on tangents about agriculture and how John and Jesus must have been a perfect 6 months apart and that the quickening of John would have occurred at a certain time and it gets into quite the logical knot, but it certainly wasn’t stating that the Feast of the Nativity was based on Natali Invictus. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-our-sun-our-gods-son-i-am-not-sold-on-either-side-of-this-theory-sell-me-please/809666/31 "2018-02-28T16:12:11Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > I think you’re misreading your sources. Tertullian for example does not conflate sun worship with Christianity, but rather in his Apology specifically says why non-Christians make that error (predominantly from the habit of Christians at the time facing east while praying toward Jerusalem, but also towards the rising sun.) Apologies is actually him talking to non-Christians saying why Christianity is not sun worship. Augustine’s Tract 34 is talking about why the Manicheans believe that Christ is the sun. Unfortunately for your argument, Manicheanism is not Christianity, nor would it have been conflated with such at the time. It was a syncretic religion and Augustine would have known that. I’m not familiar with the Leo text unfortunately. > > The Chrysostom text you refer to “De Solstitiis et Aequinoctiis” is actually not by Chrysostom at all. It’s an erroneous attribution. Nonetheless, it certainly does draw a parallel between Roman and Christian feasts, but you’ve apparently not read the tract. The whole thing is actually about setting the date according to a calculation regarding the births of John the Baptist and the Annunciation. It goes off on tangents about agriculture and how John and Jesus must have been a perfect 6 months apart and that the quickening of John would have occurred at a certain time and it gets into quite the logical knot, but it certainly wasn’t stating that the Feast of the Nativity was based on Natali Invictus. Many modern Christians have bent over backwards - and bent the texts over backwards too - in an attempt to refute the conflation of Christ and Sol Invictus by some early Christians. However, all my quotes come from the Catholic Encyclopedia, and I’ll rest on accepted Catholic scholarship, which I think is most likely to be correct in this case. Nor is it at all unlikely on the face of it. Early Christianity was rife with variant beliefs and variant scriptures that were later discarded. Anyone who thinks that the early church had standard beliefs similar to modern Christianity, or that the early church didn’t incorporate pagan elements into its worship, doesn’t know much about early Christianity. Modern Christianity is the outcome of a process taking centuries, during which beliefs gradually crystalized and became coherent. The whole religion could easily have gone in a different direction. Also, it would be reasonable to assume that there were plenty of people who partially followed Christianity and partially followed other religious sects. It was normal in the ancient world that there were many gods and many types of worship, which were not seen as being contradictory or mutually exclusive. There was a hard core of fanatical, exclusivist Christians, but there must have been many who simply included a bit a of Christianity along with their other beliefs, as it suited them. It took a long time for Christian authorities to come up with, and enforce, a standard version of Christianity. Glance through the list of so-called ‘heresies’ for an idea of early variant beliefs - even without conflation with pagan deities. Wikipedia lists over 30 different sets of beliefs in the early church. > **[List of Christian heresies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_heresies)** > > A heresy is a belief or doctrine that is considered to be false or erroneous by one or more Christian denominations, i.e. what is believed to be contrary to the teaching of the Christian Church. Heresies have been a major source of division and conflict within Christendom throughout its history. Christian churches have responded to heresies in a variety of ways, including through theological debate, excommunication, and even violence. This is a list of all Christian heresies that have been con For books later excluded from Christianity: > **[New Testament apocrypha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_apocrypha)** > > The New Testament apocrypha (singular apocryphon) are a number of writings by early Christians that give accounts of Jesus and his teachings, the nature of God, or the teachings of his apostles and of their lives. Some of these writings were cited as scripture by early Christians, but since the fifth century a widespread consensus has emerged limiting the New Testament to the 27 books of the modern canon. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant churches generally do not view the The word... There are literally dozens and dozens of gospels that were excluded. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-our-sun-our-gods-son-i-am-not-sold-on-either-side-of-this-theory-sell-me-please/809666/32 "2018-02-28T16:17:42Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > There are literally dozens and dozens of gospels that were excluded. Shut out of a canon, as it were. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-our-sun-our-gods-son-i-am-not-sold-on-either-side-of-this-theory-sell-me-please/809666/33 "2018-02-28T18:07:20Z")
I agree wuth the OP. After all [Everybody is a Star.](https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/slythefamilystone/everybodyisastar.html) And we know about Jesus, Christ, Superstar. Can’t get more Biblical than that. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2018, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-our-sun-our-gods-son-i-am-not-sold-on-either-side-of-this-theory-sell-me-please/809666/34 "2018-02-28T23:37:34Z")
> [@TZA305](#): > > Jesus is our sun. Our God’s Son. So you mean Jesus is just an ordinary one of billions of middle-aged class G(v2) ‘yellow dwarf’ stars in the universe? ---
**Author:** ![ElderSign](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eldersign/32/8263_2.png) [@ElderSign](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElderSign)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-our-sun-our-gods-son-i-am-not-sold-on-either-side-of-this-theory-sell-me-please/809666/35 "2018-03-01T15:03:59Z")
Full details about Jesus as the Sun God here, from Manly P. Hall: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Som9J0AH2FE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Som9J0AH2FE) > [@TZA305](#): > > The 3 wise men are Orion’s belt. Star in the East is Sirius. All of them point to the sunrise. Sunrise birth, sunset on the crux, winter solstice, death. Resurrection birth, spring, plants grow, saving the hood. Walk on water, ocean reflecting sunrise and sunset. I’ve only read things, sell me on Jesus, please, no disrespect to any religion. Just looking for an answer. ---
**Author:** ![proudfootz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b9e5f3/32.png) [@proudfootz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/proudfootz)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-our-sun-our-gods-son-i-am-not-sold-on-either-side-of-this-theory-sell-me-please/809666/36 "2018-03-01T15:54:05Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > There is, in fact, solid evidence that some early Christians conflated sun worship with Christianity: > > **Tertullian** (3rd century) (Apol., 16; cf. Ad. Nat., I, 13; Orig. c. Cels., VIII, 67, etc) had to assert that Sol was _not_ the Christians’ God. > > **Augustine** (4th-5th century) (Tract xxxiv, in Joan. In P.L., XXXV, 1652) denounces the heretical identification of Christ with Sol. > > **Pope Leo I** (5th century) (Serm. xxxvii in nat. dom., VII, 4; xxii, II, 6 in P.L., LIV, 218 and 198) bitterly denounces Christians who worship the sun — “Christians, on the very doorstep of the Apostles’ basilica, turn to adore the rising sun.” > > Christmas ‘just happens’ to fall on 25 December, the festival of the Birth of the Sun (Sol Invictus). > > **St John Chrysostom** (“del Solst. Et Æquin.” II, p. 118, ed. 1588) says that Christians deliberately chose to celebrate the birth of Jesus on the same day as the birth of the Sun. I agree - it seems there wouldn’t be much effort put into ‘debunking’ views no one ever thought of. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-our-sun-our-gods-son-i-am-not-sold-on-either-side-of-this-theory-sell-me-please/809666/37 "2018-03-01T16:02:07Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Shut out of a canon, as it were. This can’t go unappreciated. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-our-sun-our-gods-son-i-am-not-sold-on-either-side-of-this-theory-sell-me-please/809666/38 "2018-03-01T18:27:23Z")
If our sun is a god, are the other suns gods, too? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-our-sun-our-gods-son-i-am-not-sold-on-either-side-of-this-theory-sell-me-please/809666/39 "2018-03-01T18:28:33Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > This can’t go unappreciated. Do you know what Heinlein said about rewarding punsters? ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-our-sun-our-gods-son-i-am-not-sold-on-either-side-of-this-theory-sell-me-please/809666/40 "2018-03-01T18:31:39Z")
To the best of my knowledge, the bible makes no mention of the number of Magi, so there’s not really a scriptural basis for identifying them with the three stars of Orion’s belt. Although I don’t know when (western Christian) tradition settled on the number three. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-our-sun-our-gods-son-i-am-not-sold-on-either-side-of-this-theory-sell-me-please/809666.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-is-our-sun-our-gods-son-i-am-not-sold-on-either-side-of-this-theory-sell-me-please/809666.md?page=3)