Well, ThunderBug, there are some sins that are listed as sins that will cause people to be struck down, once and awhile: Adding to the book of Revelations will apparently give you plagues.
:rolleyes:
But all sins are equal in that if you sin AT ALL, no matter what the sin, you get a universal punishment.
Or, if you blaspheme, apparently, that can’t be forgiven. Any degree of blasphemy. Well, depending on what passage you listen to.
:rolleyes:
I know he is, but what am I?
…Seriously now. If you can’t beat Dio’s arguments, inferring from this that he’s a poo-poo head, and that he simply can’t understand yours is kind of silly, isn’t it? That’s the pit, dude. Third door on your right.
I think Dio’s defining sin as his personal beliefs as to what’s wrong, rather than a skewed, contradictory, silly set of beliefs.
Look, if something runs contrary to your belief system, you consider it wrong, unless you modify your belief system. That’s the way how belief systems work. Cite what’s circular in his argument, please.
(A) A family steals bread from a rich merchant. The family has to, otherwise, it will starve.
(B) A man kills another over a petty argument.
Now, explain to me how believing that B is considerably worse than A is somehow narrow. Does family A deserve to burn unless they take Jebus into their lives? I mean, noone deserves to burn eternally (finite punishment for finite crimes, please) but I’d sooner toss B into the pit than I would A. God apparently wouldn’t. Who’s right here, me or God?
We all know how this fulfills various prophecies, and it provides for the allegory of Jesus as the sacrificial lamb… But wouldn’t God still have given his only begotten son even if Jesus had merely died of old age?
Being opposed to capital punishment anyway…I’d have urged leniency on Pilate…
Not really. There are no Messianic prophesies in Hebew scripture that predict a martyr’s death for the Messiah. The Jewish Messiah is a human king, not a martyr or a spiritual savior.
Because God knows the end from the beginning does not mean that you also know. You still have free will, your actions are not constrained simply because God already knows the choice before you take it. You are still an independent, autonomous creature. God does know that you will pick up that hitchhiker tomorrow afternoon, for example, but you still make that choice. This is a difficult concept for some to understand, and it does take serious thought.
We were created to glorify and honor God. I want to address this very simply, and I hope you will think about it. How do you, the creation, claim to have morals superior to the Creator God? Is this not a blatant error? The designer cannot be upstaged by his design. This is a philosophical contradiction. Think about it: name one invention, one design, one creation more complex and sophisticated than the originator. The creation is always a lesser project. Such it is with us and God. If you have anger over the perceived injustice of God’s judgment, then you should probably dig a little deeper. Logic would argue that you are, in fact, in the wrong.
You’re wrong. Why is it, do you think, that Christians are warned to judge others correctly, and only after correcting ourselves? It’s because, as is written in 1 Sam. 16:7:
…the LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.
That is why I don’t consign even Hitler, Stalin, Mao to hell. I don’t know what God alone knows. I am, as always, thankful it’s not my decision to make.
It’s not free choice. Free choice obviously doesn’t exist if God knows the outcome of everything! We may feel like there’s free choice, but if God knows how Everything is going to happen, then Everything is Predetermined.
It’s really not so difficult to understand, yeah?
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It’s this very mindset that most puzzles me, though not to undue extent, let me tell you. On the surface, I find it, hmmm, bemusing that atheists can become so enraged over something they consider to be foolishness, a lie, a conspiratorial deception. When I consider any unbelievable thing such as, for example, the Raelians, I don’t as a rule become frustrated or infuriated by such self-deceptive beliefs. I just, frankly, on a surface level feel no threat, no challenge, no fear from such outrageously false ideas. On the deeper level, as a Christian, I do regret their confusion which separates them from true knowledge of God. Yet, I don’t attack them personally, I don’t call them names, I don’t seek their destruction in any manner. Of course, I do recognize why Christians are so vehemently resented, even hated, but when supposedly intelligent folk still react in such predictable manners, well, as I said, it does puzzle me.
Computer keeps eating my posts. Dio, I did have to go away and look up vernacular, to see if it still meant what I thought. At worst, I think you were called commom(unless I really missed something)? You do kind of have a potty mouth, but I’d rather see someone reactive than inactive. I’m still sticking to my guns on the sin is sin thing, to God anyway. We’re standing on the ground looking at this tiny little corner of the universe. Senario:Al killed Joe. Had Joe lived, he would have died a slow lingering death from cancer or fell asleep at the wheel and took out a busload of kids. The person who “just steals” may have taken a mother’s last $$'s, her phone was cut off and she doesn’t get help quick enough when her baby chokes; the child dies because the person stole her money. Whose sin is bigger, the thief or the killer. In our world, always the killer. That’s just a tiny part of the big picture we can’t see. And just because God has the ability to see what’s going on, doesn’t mean we still don’t make our own choices. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if my husband goes out and there’s free beer, he’s going to come home sloshed.He had a choice still.When we chose that tree(and he did warn Adam), we chose a somewhat random world, full of good and bad. I say we, because even though I know God exists, I still choose sin at times. Probably would have back there too. Did God know that we would. Some writers of the bible would say “He sees all”.Was that literal or were they trying to keep us on the straight and narrow? The Bible is a guide, written by lots of people, interpreted by lots more. Probably not all right and not all wrong. Hitler really hurt my father(POW/Germany), horribly, but it would not give me pleasure to think of him in hell and takes nothing away from me if he came to his senses at the end of his life and is with God. I’ve always wondered.Let’s say there’s not a God(there is). What is the harm in people believing, taking comfort,having hope? IWL
Diogenes, if as you’ve already boldly declared, you know all this, then you surely know your last statement to be incorrect, as far as Christians are concerned.
Paul is quite adamant, as a Pharisee, in declaring the scriptural prophecies of the Anointed One’s appearance, quoting scripture previously not understood by the Jews, as declaring his death. (Acts 17:2-3) Peter and Philip do so, as well. (Acts 8:26-35, 1 Peter 1:10-11) In addition, Daniel chapter 9, and Psalm 22 are understood by the early Jewish followers of Christ as pertaining directly and specifically to Him. Scriptural revelation, and the corresponding blindness of the larger Jewish community, are at the heart of the justification for the Gospel’s spread to Gentiles. In addition, we have Jesus’ own words:
"How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter His glory?
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning Himself.
Luke 24:25-27
NaSultaine, I agree with you in principal. Hey there’s alway a but…isn’t there. No one is ever won over with Bible facts, quotes or being told they’re wrong. I’m going to voice a horrible stereotype that I see. Many “non-believers” scoff, pull out a lot of religious facts and in general make fun of believers. In turn though, many on “our side” are guilty of coming across as self-righteous, smug or in one of the worst case senarios, practically hijack the “non-believer” and hammer away at them. Both sides are guilty of not hearing or being open. The believer side is also guilty at times of suddenly taking on this other persona(you know, that "tell me brother, do you know Jesus?) one that really chases people away. Urp. I have also heard believers say “I’ll pray for you”, almost as a weapon. I have always felt like we are supposed to live as good of a life as possible, plant some seeds along the way and let God do the convincing. There are plenty of scriptures that you can try to convince people with, but if the person doesn’t believe in God, probably won’t be that impressed by the Bible either. I have been very impressed at times of the scope of knowledge that “non-believers” have and I respect their journey. Had to study up to keep up. I would have to say I’m more spiritual than religious. I have been lucky in this life due to circumstances to be able to believe in God with ease and certainty. Doen’t happen that way for everyone, but I believe everyone gets a chance, a choice, probably more than one. He does see in our hearts. He is a nosey God at times. I do think, no matter what beliefs we are raised with, we all have a longing for there to be more, for a “bigger picture”. We have an instinctual side of us that is God-seeking(aka Allah, Yaweh(sp), etc.) I don’t believe our religion will determine where we go after this life. Born a Jew, oops tough luck. Doesn’t make much sense for a compassionate loving God. Think maybe we just don’t know everything? IWLN
Could someone please point out a verse in the Old Testament that predicts a martyr’s death for the Messiah? Verses in the New Testament do not count, obviously.
Exactly, NaSulatainne. I specifically said that it wasn’t a Jewish expectation and that there are no such prophesies in Hebrew scripture. Your reference to Psalm has never been regarded as a Messianic prophesy in Jewish interpretation and the reference does not predict the martyrdom of the Messiah. Neither passage makes any claim that the Messiah will be a spiritual savior. That was simply not a pre-Christian expectation. As a matter of fact, the death of any presumptive Messiah was considered proof that he wasn’t the Messiah which is why early Christians had to completely reinterpret prophesies and redefine the Messiah to accomodate the embarrassing death of Jesus.
There is no evidence, incidentally, that the early followers of Jesus (that is his direct disciples or contemporaries-- people who actually knew him) had any perception of Jesus as a spiritual savior. Even if they thought he was the Annointed One (possible but not a certainty) their expectations for such a figure would have been much different than Christian theological perceptions of the Messiah. The Messiah wasn’t God, for one thing, and wasn’t a redeemer of sins for another.
We have no eyewitness accounts of Jesus. The entire New Testament (with the possible exception of some embedded collections of sayings) was composed and compiled long after the crucifixion by people who never met Jesus.
Well, I offed that Marcus Veterus guy and that stopped Mithraism.
Unfortunately it changed history in an unexpected way, the Christians then became dominant. I went back again yesterday and pushed that Paul fellow into a ravine, on the road to Damascus. I left him for dead and ran. Should have made sure, sorry guys.
I’ll go back tomorrow and fix things good, this time round.
No, he’s got to die. What if he was let free and then killed while crossing the street in a freak runaway-donkey cart accident? Not a very exciting, martyr-like death, that.
No. If God knows the outcome of every single action, then fate exists. If fate exists, free will is an illusion. It’s simple.
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We were created to glorify and honor God. I want to address this very simply, and I hope you will think about it. How do you, the creation, claim to have morals superior to the Creator God? Is this not a blatant error? The designer cannot be upstaged by his design. This is a philosophical contradiction. Think about it: name one invention, one design, one creation more complex and sophisticated than the originator. The creation is always a lesser project. Such it is with us and God. If you have anger over the perceived injustice of God’s judgment, then you should probably dig a little deeper. Logic would argue that you are, in fact, in the wrong.
[quote]
The whole “Entertainment” thing was a bit of a joke. Also:
Punishing everyone eternally for different crimes, unless they beg forgiveness of an omnipotent being, is unjust. You’re not supposed to just say that “Logic would argue that you are, in fact, in the wrong,” you’re supposed to tell me why my belief is illogical. I think that different crimes should receive different punishments, and that we shouldn’t be expected to live up to the standards of an omnipotent being.
Also: Glorify and honor god? Couldn’t he have created a perfect race? And doesn’t God have a flaw, a very large ego, if he needs to create an entire race of people, who have to live through suffering and death simply to glorify Him?
I’m wrong? What? You didn’t even relate to my argument at all. I’ll put it simply, again. Let’s say that you’re God, and you know all the facts in these two cases, and it boils down to this.
(A) A family steals. It needs to in order to support itself, otherwise it will starve.
(B) A man kills another over a petty argument.
Would You give them the same punishment? Is that justice?
Chang history? No way. When Doc McCoy went back in time he saved someone’s life and the whole Federation was wiped out. We dont want to risk that happening again, do we?
I can not understand how anyone can think that this is a convincing argument at all. You expect us to accept this simply because you declare it to be true? “How do you claim that the Moon is not a round piece of green cheese? Is that not a blatant error? The Moon can not be made of anything other than green cheese. That is a philosophical contradiction. Think about it: name one moon that isn’t round. Moons are always round. Such is it with our moon. If you think that the Moon is not made of green cheese, then you should dig a little deeper. Logic would argue that you are, in fact, in the wrong.”
What if the vast majority of elected figures were Raelians? What if schoolchildren were led, every day, in a recitation declaring Rael to be the supreme leader of the country? What if people who had a problem with that were ridiculed and sent death threats? What if Raelians were constantly demanding that Raelian beliefs be taught alongside established scientific theory on an “equal time” basis? What if it were a felony to perform acts delcared “abominable” by the Raelians? What if the president were to declare that he doesn’t consider a non-Raelian to be a true patriot? What if polls consistently revealed that a majority of the citizens would not, under any circumstance, vote for a non-Raelian for prisdent? What if Raelians told Christians what their scriptures meant, and called an unwillingness to accept their pronouncements as “blindness”? What if Raelians were constantly chiding non-Raelians as being completely unable to comprehend God, yet declaring themselves to know the mind of God with certainty? You would not be at all perturbed by such a situation?
Do you truly not realize how incredibly conceited that is? If you were to say, “As far as Christians are concerned, Jesus was God incarnate”, and I were to reply, “NaSultainne, if as you’ve already boldly declared, you know all this, then you surely know your last statement to be incorrect, as far as Muslims are concerned. The Koran clearly states that Jesus was merely a prophet. Even Christians who have converted to Islam agree with this. Scriptural revelation, and the corresponding blindness of the larger Christian community, are at the heart of the justification for the Koran’s spread to Arabs.” It doesn’t matter what Christians say, the fact remains that the Jesus is in no way the Jewish conception of the Messiah. Seeing as the word “Christ” is simply the Greek version of the word “Messiah”, the term “Jesus Christ” is a misnomer. I find it quite arrogant to presume to know better than Jews what their own scriptures mean, and to call the Jews “blind”. Even more arrogant than telling the Jews when the Sabbath is, in fact.
I do think saying we were created to glorify and honor God is a bit too simplistic. Good and evil already existed before man came along. If you’ve read Job, you can tell that there was more going on than we really get. I believe in God and I’m not being flip, but Job was involved in a contest he never intended to enter. In answer to whoever asked about old testament verses pertaining to Jesus being, read Zechariah Chapter 9-12. I see it there, but I am also reading with a different mindset than a non-believer. It was on page 1666 of my bible which is a cute little irony. See what you think. You don’t need to scoff if you don’t agree. I use scoffguard, so it’s wasted on me. I also don’t think there is concrete proof in any reading you’ll ever do. The Bible doesn’t exactly come across as logic. I love cheese, but not green and hate to admit that I don’t know who the Raelians are. I’ll look them up on a day I haven’t read 1600+ pages of Bible. I don’t think God or Jesus are just dying to send large groups of people to hell (little irony there). I think we were given free will, a choice and there’s more than one power involved in this whole earth trip. It’s not the easy way out to believe in God. It sometimes really gets in the way of my wild child side. And I don’t believe because someone told me to. I believe it because I can feel it, know it. I am a fairly new Catholic, in deference to my new husband, but I don’t believe all or none of any religion. Don’t think it matters what church I go to, it’s what’s in my heart and mind that counts. Have had a few miracles in my life, one huge and feel lucky to have received a little insider knowledge. Oh and it’s not the sin as much as what’s in your heart when it happens, so the bread stealer trying to feed his family will probably earn a “get out of jail free” card. Again, what is the harm in a belief in God or whoever you believe in. If it gives you comfort, makes you try harder to be moral; who is it hurting? IWLN
No you don’t. Just because you don’t know how an event will resolve does not give you the ability to freely decide your own actions. You will not make any decision that was not foreseen by an omniscient god. You do not have such an ability.
An event foreseen doesn’t take away your personal choice. I still don’t know why so many people think it does. Just because he knows what you’re going to do, doesn’t mean your choice was based on a knowledge you have no awareness of. If I know what’s going to happen to someone else, I’m not affecting their choice. Personally I still don’t think what we’re doing is so riveting that he’s tuned in all the time. He’s got to be a little busy keeping an eye on the devil. (I’d put a smile here but I haven’t figured out how yet. Would a physic’s prior knowlege change an event.(Not necessarily saying they exist, even though there’s been a few that were too right and specific to be ingnored).
Diogenes and Czarcasm, Did you read Zechariah chapter 9-12? So what’s your call, hooey, coincedence, crystal ball, hmmmm or what? Come on. I did a lot of reading to find that. At least do me the honor of shooting me down if you think it’s wrong, telling me why. IWLN
