# Jesus: Myth, or Man? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2016, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392 "2016-01-07T03:02:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/241 "2016-01-08T17:31:19Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I believed your point was that once a person had been crucified, Jews at the time would have stopped respecting him. No, the point was … > [@Malthus](#): > > No. In Judaism, by definition, a messiah can’t also be a failure. Failure makes one a _false_ messiah. See: Simon Bar Kokhba. > > The execution of Jesus makes it very difficult for Jews to accept claims of his messiah-hood, as it is totally contrary to the Jewish understanding (then as now) of what a messiah is. It has absolutely nothing to do with respecting the person. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/242 "2016-01-08T17:31:31Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > No - the idea is that a guy who fails and is executed can’t be a “messiah”. This is totally grounded. Yes, I do not disagree that your idea here is grounded. As I said: Thought you were saying something else. What’s _not_ grounded is the oft-asserted idea that somehow execution by crucifixion would render a revolutionary figure in Judea at that time and place completely unrespectable in Jewish eyes. There’s just no reason to think this so, and everything we know about how these things work militates against it. But’s it’s okay because you weren’t saying that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/243 "2016-01-08T17:34:14Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > A > > If you assume Josephus’ _Antiquities_, published in 93 but written earlier, contained the phrase translated “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James” then this was presumably considered a true story in 62 A.D. Are you now suggesting that James was real, but his connection to the mythical Jesus was invented? Guys, it’s up for debate in scholarly circles whether this “Jesus” is _the_ Jesus. Right there in the same passage, Josephus refers to a whole nother Jesus. That could be the one referred to. Again: We just don’t know (Khaleesi) a lot of the things we think are known (Khaleesi). ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/244 "2016-01-08T17:36:51Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > You’re going to hear a lot of valid criticism of the author in terms of his bedside manner (though in the linked article he’s in scholar mode so the crankiness is not on display) but in my view, as to the _logic of the debate_ (ignoring the rhetoric and drama), he’s got a plausible case–at least as plausible as non-mythicism. I rather like Carrier and have since my early days on the **iidb** site. Whether he is “as plausible as non-mythicism” is a matter of opinion. I believe that a significant majority of scholars would disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/245 "2016-01-08T17:39:57Z")
It’s up for grabs in Scholarly circles whether Jews at that time and place even had an expectation that there was going to be some “the Messiah” figure–they, or a lot of them, might have thought there would be several, or that that a Messiah is just a type of person rather than a special specific prophesied person, and there are other ideas attested as well. And there is no clear, strong grounding for any claims about what jews at that time “would have said” or “would have found believable” about a wide range of ideas about the concept of Messiah, because the diversity we _do_ see in relevant sources, together with what we know about how much was lost, makes any such claim a weak one at best. We just don’t know a lot of the stuff we assume we know when it comes to this. ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/246 "2016-01-08T17:45:16Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > What’s _not_ grounded is the oft-asserted idea that somehow execution by crucifixion would render a revolutionary figure in Judea at that time and place completely unrespectable in Jewish eyes. People say all manner of things, but I’ve never seen this asserted in any informed discussion. What is asserted is that a humiliating death by crucifixion would mitigate against respecting the victim as the mashiach. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/247 "2016-01-08T17:48:21Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You have no idea who he heard it from, and he wrote it down in 90 C.E., after Christianity was, you know, a thing. In that case, we can toss all of Roman History out. \* Nothing\* is verified then.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/248 "2016-01-08T17:49:17Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > It’s up for grabs in Scholarly circles whether Jews at that time and place even had an expectation that there was going to be some “the Messiah” figure–they, or a lot of them, might have thought there would be several, or that that a Messiah is just a type of person rather than a special specific prophesied person, and there are other ideas attested as well. What “Scholarly circles.” According to what peer-reviewed works? What have you read about the closing days of the Second Temple Period? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/249 "2016-01-08T17:54:36Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Josephus > > Born 37AD > Died 100AD > > He was not even alive at the time of Jesus’s “Resurrection”. > Hence, 2 decades removed. > Jesus moved around a lot, right? > Hence, 2 towns over. > > You’re right. I don’t know much about Josephus. The only thing I know about him was his chronicling of some Jewish revolt whereupon, if memory serves me correct, he knew both the General/leader on the Roman side and also knew the rebels and the rebel leaders on the Jewish side. You know, proper historical events backed by proper historical sources. That being other non biased third party accounts. > > Since his comments about Jesus are the very definition of Hearsay, I shall continue to remain unimpressed on that particular topic… > > Hearsay - information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor. His comment about Jesus was the James- the Brother of Jesus-- was executed in AD 62 or so. Altho he did not participate, he was there at the time. He knew the Sanhedrin, was related to them, was part of that caste. Thus, he had direct evidence that James was executed. Of course, this is no way validates any of the miracles or any details about Jesus, other than He was “called” “Christ” and He had a brother named James, who was a early Christian. So, the execution of James was not hearsay to Josephus. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/250 "2016-01-08T17:58:03Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The Jewish-Christians, however, tightly link Jesus to his family - like St James. They tightly link him to John the Baptist. There is no Bethlehem birth. The documents they share are mostly about Jesus’ wisdom. The miracles all come from the Pauline church. John has miracles and he wasnt part of the Pauline church. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/251 "2016-01-08T18:02:14Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Matthew is also the only person who noted Herod slaughtering all male infants in the region of Bethlehem,. wiki: \* Brown and others argue that, based on Bethlehem’s estimated population of 1,000 at the time, the largest number of infants that could have been killed would have been about twenty,[15][16] and R. T. France, addressing the story’s absence in Antiquities of the Jews, argues that “the murder of a few infants in a small village [is] not on a scale to match the more spectacular assassinations recorded by Josephus”.[17]\* However, Macrobius (c. 395-423), wrote in his Saturnalia _“When he [emperor Augustus] heard that among the boys in Syria under two years old whom Herod, king of the Jews, had ordered killed, his own son was also killed, he said: it is better to be Herod’s pig, than his son.”[19]_ ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/252 "2016-01-08T18:02:22Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > What “Scholarly circles.” According to what peer-reviewed works? What have you read about the closing days of the Second Temple Period? Yes. What I’m describing is just what’s generally known if you read much about this. Lots of different biblical historians have lots of different ideas about what “messiah” meant to Jews at the relevant time and place. And if that’s the case, then we here on the SDMB message boards can hardly think of ourselves as knowing what a jew at that time and place “would” or “wouldn’t” have said or believed about the concept of messiah. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/253 "2016-01-08T18:03:34Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Guys, it’s up for debate in scholarly circles whether this “Jesus” is _the_ Jesus. Right there in the same passage, Josephus refers to a whole nother Jesus. That could be the one referred to. Yes, but that other Jesus wasnt called “Christ”. Jesus was a common name, true. ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/254 "2016-01-08T18:09:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Altho he did not participate, he was there at the time. He knew the Sanhedrin, was related to them, was part of that caste. Thus, he had direct evidence that James was executed. Your evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/255 "2016-01-08T18:13:33Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > What I’m describing is just what’s generally known if you read much about this. I have read a great deal about it. What books would you recommend? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/256 "2016-01-08T18:25:45Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > What “Scholarly circles.” According to what peer-reviewed works? What have you read about the closing days of the Second Temple Period? FWIW this looks to be a relevant work displaying some mainstream contemporary scholars’ view that the idea of Messiah was much more fluid and diverse than many have assumed. [The Messiah: Developments in Earliest Judaism and Christianity: Charlesworth, James H.: 9780800697587: Amazon.com: Books](http://www.amazon.com/The-Messiah-Developments-Earliest-Christianity/dp/0800697588) I haven’t read it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/257 "2016-01-08T18:26:46Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > Your evidence? Did you read his autobiography? I even included a link. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/258 "2016-01-08T18:28:13Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > I have read a great deal about it. What books would you recommend? You’re telling me you’ve read a great deal about it, yet think there is a clear consensus about what the jewish expectation of messiah was? What books do _you_ recommend? You’ll not get any contemporary biblical scholar to agree that there is such a consensus. I welcome you to produce one. 🙂 Sure most will have their view about what messianic expectation consisted in, and may think they’re own view is clearly right, but none of them are going to say there’s a clear consensus about this among biblical historians today. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/259 "2016-01-08T18:28:44Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > The mythicist hypothesis I think is most plausible posits that Christianity started in Jerusalem with, probably, Peter James and John, and that Paul was a later addition to (and trouble-maker within) that sect. I kind of like the [Flavian](http://postflaviana.org/introduction-flavian-origins-theory-christianity/) theory: > [@](#): > > In Caesar’s Messiah, Joseph Atwill showed that the Flavian Caesars, Vespasian and Titus, invented Christianity, more or less in the form we know it today. Remarkably, the emperors left behind a veiled confession (or boast) of their work, embedded in the Gospels and the works of Josephus. The religion was invented as wartime propaganda, primarily targeted at Hellenistic Jews of the Diaspora, and also at the Gentiles (who were being approached by Jewish evangelists.) This covert act of psychological warfare was successful beyond the Romans’ wildest dreams: even today, the dominant view is that Christianity arose in humble circumstances, and grew to massive proportions while being driven by a variety of philosophical and religious trends, if not by God himself. The Jews were looking for a Messiah to triumph over the Romans – They invented Christianity to say be humble, go along with the Romans and you’ll be rewarded after you die. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/260 "2016-01-08T18:29:35Z")
> [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > I kind of like the [Flavian](http://postflaviana.org/introduction-flavian-origins-theory-christianity/) theory: Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392.md?page=14)