# Jesus: Myth, or Man? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2016, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392 "2016-01-07T03:02:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/401 "2016-01-15T20:42:34Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > That Nazareth shows up in all four Gospels is not at all surprising for those who ascribe to the [**Two-Source hypothesis**](http://www.hypotyposeis.org/synoptic-problem/) or something comparable. It means no more that that a tradition found in Mark was copied. Spiderman/Peter Parker is featured in Fantastic 4 comics, and, the other way around. Similarly, Doctor Strange and Daredevil and The Punisher all share similar storylines - in the same city - no less. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/402 "2016-01-15T21:27:27Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > That Nazareth shows up in all four Gospels is not at all surprising for those who ascribe to the [**Two-Source hypothesis**](http://www.hypotyposeis.org/synoptic-problem/) or something comparable. It means no more that that a tradition found in Mark was copied… Note that in the Two-Source hypothesis, etc, they do not include John, which clearly is a second source, independent of the Synoptic Gospels. ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/403 "2016-01-15T21:36:15Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > > [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > > > That Nazareth shows up in all four Gospels is not at all surprising for those who ascribe to the [**Two-Source hypothesis**](http://www.hypotyposeis.org/synoptic-problem/) or something comparable. It means no more that that a tradition found in Mark was copied. > > Spiderman/Peter Parker is featured in Fantastic 4 comics, and, the other way around. Similarly, Doctor Strange and Daredevil and The Punisher all share similar storylines - in the same city - no less. \ In other words …[ul] [li] we find elements of {a} in {A}[/li][li] we find elements of {b} in {B}[/li][li] {a} looks a bit like {b}, therefore[/li][li] {A} is the same as {B}[/ul]Yet again, thanks for sharing.[/li]\ ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/404 "2016-01-15T21:40:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Note that in the Two-Source hypothesis, etc, they do not include John, which clearly is a second source, independent of the Synoptic Gospels. Which does not at all mean that John was entirely uninformed by the Synoptics. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/405 "2016-01-15T21:57:07Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > Now I’m the one confused. Who is suggesting that the “more incredible claims” of the Gospel writers should be trusted? Yeah, I switched contexts there; Nazareth not existing wouldn’t matter to a secular historian. But IMO it would be a huge deal to believers. In that same paragraph, he says it wouldn’t matter to Obama’s historicity if he hadn’t been born in the US, and that’s true, but it would matter quite a bit to his Presidency. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/406 "2016-01-15T22:03:55Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > But the statement itself can and should be evaluated as evidence rather than being summarily dismissed because of its source. One can learn something about weather threats in Kansas from The Wizard of Oz without embracing the idea of Munchkins. Sorry, I don’t know which statement you mean. That Joseph turned aside from Judea to Nazareth? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/407 "2016-01-15T22:04:42Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > Which does not at all mean that John was entirely uninformed by the Synoptics. No, in fact some have hypothesized his Gospel was a "answer’ to the Synoptics. ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/408 "2016-01-15T22:16:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > > > Note that in the Two-Source hypothesis, etc, they do not include John, which clearly is a second source, independent of the Synoptic Gospels. > > > > Which does not at all mean that John was entirely uninformed by the Synoptics. > > No, in fact some have hypothesized his Gospel was a "answer’ to the Synoptics. Seriosly? How does one write and “answer” to something about which he is wholly uninformed? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/409 "2016-01-15T22:33:54Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > Yet again, thanks for sharing. I’m not really sure why you want to be sarcastic. You are making unfounded claims with no facts to support your claim. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/410 "2016-01-15T22:48:13Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > Seriosly? How does one write and “answer” to something about which he is wholly uninformed? **DrDeth** is agreeing with you. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/411 "2016-01-15T23:31:14Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > Seriosly? How does one write and “answer” to something about which he is wholly uninformed? New here, are ya? ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/412 "2016-01-15T23:42:30Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > **DrDeth** is agreeing with you. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/413 "2016-01-15T23:43:31Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > New here, are ya? :o ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/414 "2016-01-15T23:44:41Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > You are making unfounded claims with no facts to support your claim. Which claim was unfounded? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/415 "2016-01-16T00:30:55Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > Which claim was unfounded? I think the better question would be which one - wasn’t -. I mean, you’ve made so many claims on this thread and not a single time have you been able to produce one fact that actually proves a “historical” Jesus existed. The fact that he - probably - existed is beside the point. No one gets to claim - he existed - without the proof. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/416 "2016-01-16T02:24:37Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > The fact that he - probably - existed is beside the point. No one gets to claim - he existed - without the proof. 😕 Can you construct a rigorous proof that, say, Plato existed? Or Dante? You might have a 99.9999% likelihood “proof” but never 100% – just consider Boltzman’s thermodynamic paradox. 🆒 The question is: Estimate the probability of Jesus (suitably defined) existence. Is it 1% to 10% 30% to 60% or thereabouts 90% 98% 99.8% ?? I’ll go with 98%-plus that a real Jesus from Galilee existed, was a charismatic healer/rebel, was crucified by Pilate and/or baptized by John the B. Others? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/417 "2016-01-16T03:20:17Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I think the better question would be which one - wasn’t -. Is this your admission that you can’t actually name an unfounded claim? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/418 "2016-01-16T03:27:37Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > 😕 Can you construct a rigorous proof that, say, Plato existed? Or Dante? You might have a 99.9999% likelihood “proof” but never 100% – just consider Boltzman’s thermodynamic paradox. 🆒 Yes, I would say there is 99% chance both Plato and Dante existed. There is abundant historical facts which indicate this. > [@](#): > > I’ll go with 98%-plus that a real Jesus from Galilee existed, was a charismatic healer/rebel, was crucified by Pilate and/or baptized by John the B. Others? Based upon what facts? ---
**Author:** ![Jayhawker\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Jayhawker\_Soule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayhawker_Soule)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/419 "2016-01-16T04:21:27Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > > [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > > > > [@Robert163](#): > > > > > > I’m not really sure why you want to be sarcastic. You are making unfounded claims with no facts to support your claim. > > > > Which claim was unfounded? > > I think the better question would be which one - wasn’t -. I mean, you’ve made so many claims on this thread and not a single time have you been able to produce one fact that actually proves a “historical” Jesus existed. Please cite an example of an unfounded claim. > [@Robert163](#): > > The fact that he - probably - existed is beside the point. No one gets to claim - he existed - without the proof. Please try to keep up. To the best of my knowledge, no one is claiming to possess proof. Rather, people are asserting that historicity is the more reasonable presumption, i.e., that it is a case of inference to best explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/420 "2016-01-16T04:30:16Z")
> [@Jayhawker\_Soule](#): > > Please cite an example of an unfounded claim. > > Please try to keep up. To the best of my knowledge, no one is claiming to possess proof. Rather, people are asserting that historicity is the more reasonable presumption, i.e., that it is a case of inference to best explanation. Oh, yes, it is a reasonable - assumption - to say a “preacher” named “jesus” existed. But you do not appear to be discussing an “assumption”. You’ve been at this for several days now, with lots and lots of links and propositions and “views” from historians. It seems to me like you are arguing that he did exist, not that he probably existed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392.md?page=22)