# Jesus: Myth, or Man? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2016, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392 "2016-01-07T03:02:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/81 "2016-01-07T19:22:17Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > It’s the [Hobgoblin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobgoblin_(comics))of little minds, don’t you think? No. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/82 "2016-01-07T19:32:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m sorry. Did you forget from where(and when)all of Paul’s recollections about Jesus came from? About directly meeting Jesus- yes. But most of Pauls writings are letters, and the Acts of the Apostles. Note that John certainly met Jesus, and “wrote” that Gospel. And, no one- not even the Romans- cast any doubt that Jesus was a real man in that period. While they still had access to stuff like Pilate’s execution orders, etc. However, after the “Dark Ages” all that’s left of that periods documents could fit on a bookshelf. As\*\* septimus\*\* pointed out, until recently there was no evidence that Pilate existed outside the Gospels and Josephus. Some deniers claimed Pilate was made up, even. In fact the doubts about the Historic Jesus are quite recent. There is really no doubt that\*\* a\*\* Jesus existed. Of course, doubting the miracles and some of the odd details the Mathew threw in to make it all work with prophesies is entirely another thing. There’s actually more evidence of Jesus than Socrates. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/83 "2016-01-07T19:32:50Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I don’t think it is nearly as likely. The evidence: the writers of the gospels went through all sorts of improbable contortions to give “Jesus” the right pedigree for a messiah. If they just made him up out of whole cloth, why not give him perfect credentials without all the difficulties? > > This makes me think that they were mythologizing an awkwardly real person, that enough was known _at the time the stories were written_ about that real person that they could not just give him whatever characteristics they wanted. I think it would work pretty much like fan fiction today-written by different people at different places at different times, _and sometimes about different people altogether_, then later these stories are fixed as much as possible to make them “canon”. Some stories have spread too far and wide to be changed to completely fit the established story-thus the differences. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/84 "2016-01-07T19:38:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > About directly meeting Jesus- yes. But most of Pauls writings are letters, and the Acts of the Apostles. > > Note that John certainly met Jesus, and “wrote” that Gospel. > > And, no one- not even the Romans- cast any doubt that Jesus was a real man in that period. While they still had access to stuff like Pilate’s execution orders, etc. However, after the “Dark Ages” all that’s left of that periods documents could fit on a bookshelf. As\*\* septimus\*\* pointed out, until recently there was no evidence that Pilate existed outside the Gospels and Josephus. Some deniers claimed Pilate was made up, even. > > In fact the doubts about the Historic Jesus are quite recent. > > There is really no doubt that\*\* a\*\* Jesus existed. Of course, doubting the miracles and some of the odd details the Mathew threw in to make it all work with prophesies is entirely another thing. > > There’s actually more evidence of Jesus than Socrates. There is exactly _one stone_ that demonstrates Pilate was a real person. > **[Pilate stone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate_stone)** > > The Pilate stone is a damaged block (82 cm x 65 cm) of carved limestone with a partially intact inscription attributed to, and mentioning, Pontius Pilate, a prefect of the Roman province of Judea from AD 26 to 36. It was discovered at the archaeological site of Caesarea Maritima in 1961. The artifact is particularly significant because it is an archaeological find of an authentic 1st-century Roman inscription mentioning the name "\[Pon\]tius Pilatus". It is contemporary to Pilate's lifetime, and a... I think sometimes people wildly overestimate how much “hard evidence” exists for anyone from the ancient world. Even people quite important in their own lifetimes, we are lucky to have _anything_ from. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/85 "2016-01-07T19:42:07Z")
We exercise to his name-that’s all the evidence _I_ need that Pilate existed. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/86 "2016-01-07T19:45:49Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > What’s your take on the book of Acts—was everything in it completely made up too? Why? What would that have to do with Jesus’ existence? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/87 "2016-01-07T19:47:02Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > ETA: > I was born 11 years before that, in the deep woods of east Texas, still right in the Bible Belt, and when I was a little kid, it was common knowledge that rasslin’ was all staged. maybe people are smarter in texas than they are in georgia ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/88 "2016-01-07T19:52:32Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > There is exactly _one stone_ that demonstrates Pilate was a real person. > > [Pilate stone - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate_stone) > > I think sometimes people wildly overestimate how much “hard evidence” exists for anyone from the ancient world. Even people quite important in their own lifetimes, we are lucky to have _anything_ from. And, it’s broken _and_ part of the inscription has to be inferred. \* And\*- we’re lucky to have even that. This does blow apart the common argument that Jesus could not be real as no contemporaneous Roman records mention Him. Mind you, yes, there likely were such records at one time (but not much, mind you). But just about everything is gone. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/89 "2016-01-07T20:00:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And, it’s broken _and_ part of the inscription has to be inferred. \* And\*- we’re lucky to have even that. > > This does blow apart the common argument that Jesus could not be real as no contemporaneous Roman records mention Him. Mind you, yes, there likely were such records at one time (but not much, mind you). But just about everything is gone. There is no “common argument that Jesus could not be real”-that’s a strawman, so you’ve blown apart nothing. If there is an argument, it is that there is little to no positive evidence that Jesus existed, and even less that Jesus The Christ The Miracle Worker and Changer Of Water Into Wine and Risen From The Dead ever existed. Not that he couldn’t, but that he did. See the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/90 "2016-01-07T20:00:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > About directly meeting Jesus- yes. But most of Pauls writings are letters, and the Acts of the Apostles. > > Note that John certainly met Jesus, and “wrote” that Gospel. I don’t think that’s established. Can we not state things as fact unless they are very solid? > **[Authorship of the Johannine works](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Johannine_works)** > > The authorship of the Johannine works (the Gospel of John, the Johannine epistles, and the Book of Revelation) has been debated by biblical scholars since at least the 2nd century AD. The debate focuses mainly on the identity of the author(s), as well as the date and location of authorship of these writings. > Although authorship of all of these works has traditionally been attributed to John the Apostle, only a minority of contemporary scholars believe he wrote the gospel, and most conclude th... > [@](#): > > The authorship of the Johannine works (the Gospel of John, Epistles of John, and the Book of Revelation) has been debated by scholars since at least the 2nd century AD.[1] The main debate centers on who authored the writings, and which of the writings, if any, can be ascribed to a common author. > > Orthodox tradition attributes all the books to John the Apostle.[2] > > In the 6th century, the Decretum Gelasianum argued that Second and Third John have a separate author known as “John, a priest” (see John the Presbyter).[3] Higher criticism[by whom?] rejects the view that John the Apostle authored any of these works. > > Many modern scholars conclude that the apostle John wrote none of these works,[4] although others, notably J.A.T. Robinson, F. F. Bruce, Leon Morris, and Martin Hengel[5] hold the apostle to be behind at least some, in particular the gospel.[6][7] > > There may have been a single author for the gospel and the three epistles.[2] Some scholars conclude the author of the epistles was different from that of the gospel, although all four works probably originated from the same community.[8] The gospel and epistles traditionally and plausibly came from Ephesus, c. 90-110, although some scholars argue for an origin in Syria.[9] > [@](#): > > And, no one- not even the Romans- cast any doubt that Jesus was a real man in that period. While they still had access to stuff like Pilate’s execution orders, etc. However, after the “Dark Ages” all that’s left of that periods documents could fit on a bookshelf. As\*\* septimus\*\* pointed out, until recently there was no evidence that Pilate existed outside the Gospels and Josephus. Some deniers claimed Pilate was made up, even. Why would the Romans fact-check Jesus in real time? I don’t think you are fully getting the _fog of war_ that primitive people lived in. > [@](#): > > In fact the doubts about the Historic Jesus are quite recent. So what? We have better tools to evaluate things now that we did two thousand years ago, about a preacher 30 years after his death, from the other side of the Empire, in a different language than we speak. > [@](#): > > There is really no doubt that\*\* a\*\* Jesus existed. Of course, doubting the miracles and some of the odd details the Mathew threw in to make it all work with prophesies is entirely another thing. Sure there is doubt. But like most things in religion, we’re expected to give it more latitude than other questions. > [@](#): > > There’s actually more evidence of Jesus than Socrates. So? Also, not really. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/91 "2016-01-07T20:01:28Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > But there was a guy named Joseph Smith who started the Church of Latter Day Saints. There was an L. Ron Hubbard who started Scientology. Like I’ve said before, these guys _aren’t_ the Jesus of their religions. They’re the Paul. In the analogy you’re making, Jesus is Moroni, he’s Xenu. Is that really the analogy you want to make? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/92 "2016-01-07T20:05:01Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I don’t think it is nearly as likely. The evidence: the writers of the gospels went through all sorts of improbable contortions to give “Jesus” the right pedigree for a messiah. If they just made him up out of whole cloth, why not give him perfect credentials without all the difficulties? I agree. While recognizing it’s not ironclad proof, what we have makes me think they were basing it on a real guy. One piece of prophecy fulfillment I didn’t see mentioned in this thread is that the Messiah is supposed to have been dead 3 days and then resurrected. Nobody would have \*ever \*said three days meant “dying on Friday and missing from the tomb by the time anyone showed up Sunday dawn,” until there was a need to do so. That part of the story smacks of desperation, honestly. If I’m making up a legend, well, this guy Yeshua was killed on Wednesday. He rose from the dead on Shabbat! _That’s_ three days. 72 hours. Not 36. And there were lots of witnesses. His followers were still weeping and moaning near the tomb, where the 12 were keeping a vigil. Then, they heard a voice from the tomb, “Why do you weep? Have I not not told you to have faith?” and the stone rolled away as though of its own accord, and he emerged, all like, “is there someplace within a Sabbath’s walk where we can eat and relax and talk?” ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/93 "2016-01-07T20:06:49Z")
> [@bup](#): > > I agree. While recognizing it’s not ironclad proof, what we have makes me think they were basing it on a real guy. One piece of prophecy fulfillment I didn’t see mentioned in this thread is that the Messiah is supposed to have been dead 3 days and then resurrected. Nobody would have \*ever \*said three days meant “dying on Friday and missing from the tomb by the time anyone showed up Sunday dawn,” until there was a need to do so. That part of the story smacks of desperation, honestly. > > If I’m making up a legend, well, this guy Yeshua was killed on Wednesday. He rose from the dead on Shabbat! _That’s_ three days. 72 hours. Not 36. And there were lots of witnesses. His followers were still weeping and moaning near the tomb, where the 12 were keeping a vigil. Then, they heard a voice from the tomb, “Why do you weep? Have I not not told you to have faith?” and the stone rolled away as though of its own accord, and he emerged, all like, “is there someplace within a Sabbath’s walk where we can eat and relax and talk?” The problem with that reasoning, is that if there was a real guy, he certainly didn’t actually rise from the dead. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/94 "2016-01-07T20:10:08Z")
> [@bup](#): > > I agree. While recognizing it’s not ironclad proof, what we have makes me think they were basing it on a real guy. One piece of prophecy fulfillment I didn’t see mentioned in this thread is that the Messiah is supposed to have been dead 3 days and then resurrected. Nobody would have \*ever \*said three days meant “dying on Friday and missing from the tomb by the time anyone showed up Sunday dawn,” until there was a need to do so. That part of the story smacks of desperation, honestly. > > If I’m making up a legend, well, this guy Yeshua was killed on Wednesday. He rose from the dead on Shabbat! _That’s_ three days. 72 hours. Not 36. And there were lots of witnesses. His followers were still weeping and moaning near the tomb, where the 12 were keeping a vigil. Then, they heard a voice from the tomb, “Why do you weep? Have I not not told you to have faith?” and the stone rolled away as though of its own accord, and he emerged, all like, “is there someplace within a Sabbath’s walk where we can eat and relax and talk?” This is “Heads I win-tails, you lose” arguing. If stories match up evenly it’s because they verify each other, but if they _don’t_ match up it’s evidence that they weren’t trying to fake it? Using this line of “reasoning”, what would it take to convince you that a Biblical tale was bullshit? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/95 "2016-01-07T20:10:29Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I don’t think it is nearly as likely. The evidence: the writers of the gospels went through all sorts of improbable contortions to give “Jesus” the right pedigree for a messiah. If they just made him up out of whole cloth, why not give him perfect credentials without all the difficulties? > > This makes me think that they were mythologizing an awkwardly real person, that enough was known _at the time the stories were written_ about that real person that they could not just give him whatever characteristics they wanted. thats exactly what someone who was really really really good at lies and propaganda would do… never make up a “perfect” lie… fudge enough details to leave and appearance of “reasonable doubt” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/96 "2016-01-07T20:13:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Like I’ve said before, these guys _aren’t_ the Jesus of their religions. They’re the Paul. In the analogy you’re making, Jesus is Moroni, he’s Xenu. Is that really the analogy you want to make? I disagree with your analysis. It seems like it’s begging the question; you’re essentially arguing that Jesus the man couldn’t have existed because Jesus the divine being couldn’t have existed. And that’s not true - Jesus certainly could have existed as a human being without being supernatural. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/97 "2016-01-07T20:13:35Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I don’t think it is nearly as likely. The evidence: the writers of the gospels went through all sorts of improbable contortions to give “Jesus” the right pedigree for a messiah. If they just made him up out of whole cloth, why not give him perfect credentials without all the difficulties? Well I oversimplified. 😉 The idea isn’t that he was created out of whole cloth but that one or more communities created a hodgepodge of stories/had a hodgepodge of revelations that needn’t have been mutually consistent with each other, all sort of based on different bits of OT scripture and dealing with different contemporary stuff and so on. The awkward contortions come about later as people try to synthesize these together, AND come about as a result of people trying to reshape the nascent myth according to their own theological preferences. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/98 "2016-01-07T20:15:31Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > What’s your take on the book of Acts—was everything in it completely made up too? Do I need to have a definite opinion about this? If so, why? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/99 "2016-01-07T20:16:09Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > _ **Nobody disputes that there was a real person named William Shakespeare** _ Well as said, it’s not a conspiracy that I’m particularly knowledgeable on. (And I doubt that your statement “nobody disputes” is correct. I’m sure that among the nutters there’s at least one exreme nutter.) But accepted. And no interest in debating the topic, here nor in any other location. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392/100 "2016-01-07T20:16:54Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > There is exactly _one stone_ that demonstrates Pilate was a real person. > > [Pilate stone - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate_stone) > > I think sometimes people wildly overestimate how much “hard evidence” exists for anyone from the ancient world. Even people quite important in their own lifetimes, we are lucky to have _anything_ from. This to me counts in favor of mythicism, or at least agnosticism about Jesus’s existence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-myth-or-man/742392.md?page=6)