Jesus: Myth, or Man?

So, then- we can’t state *anything. *

If you read the section** More recent criticism**, theories and info gathered after the Dead Sea Scrolls make that John was the author the current consensus:

*The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in Qumran marked a change in Johannine scholarship. Several of the hymns, presumed to come from a community of Essenes, contained the same sort of plays between opposites – light and dark, truth and lies – which are themes within the Gospel. Thus the hypothesis that the Gospel relied on Gnosticism fell out of favor. Many suggested further that John the Baptist himself belonged to an Essene community, and if John the Apostle had previously been a disciple of the Baptist, he would have been affected by that teaching.[citation needed]

The resulting revolution in Johannine scholarship was termed the new look by John A. T. Robinson, who coined the phrase in 1957 at Oxford. According to Robinson, this new information rendered the question of authorship a relative one. He considered a group of disciples around the aging John the Apostle who wrote down his memories, mixing them with theological speculation, a model that had been proposed as far back as Renan’s Vie de Jésus (“Life of Jesus,” 1863). The work of such scholars brought the consensus back to a Palestinian origin for the text, rather than the Hellenistic origin favored by the critics of the previous decades.[citation needed]*

Because the followers of Jesus were a giant pain in the ass to them. The Romans killed quite a number of Christians, they could have cut the legs off the faith if they had been able to show Jesus was made up.

Yes, better* tools*. But the Romans had Pilates execution records.

*Nothing written by Socrates remains extant. As a result, all first-hand information about him and his philosophies depend upon secondary sources. Furthermore, close comparison between the contents of these sources reveals contradictions, thus creating concerns about the possibility of knowing in-depth the real Socrates. This issue is known as the Socratic problem,[4] or the Socratic question.[5][6]

To understand Socrates and his thought, one must turn primarily to the works of Plato, whose dialogues are thought the most informative source about Socrates’ life and philosophy,[7] and also Xenophon.[8] These writings are the Sokratikoi logoi, or Socratic dialogues, which consist of reports of conversations apparently involving Socrates.[9][10]

As for discovering the real-life Socrates, the difficulty is that ancient sources are mostly philosophical or dramatic texts, apart from Xenophon. There are no straightforward histories, contemporary with Socrates, that dealt with his own time and place. A corollary of this is that sources that do mention Socrates do not necessarily claim to be historically accurate, and are often partisan. For instance, those who prosecuted and convicted Socrates have left no testament. Historians therefore face the challenge of reconciling the various evidence from the extant texts in order to attempt an accurate and consistent account of Socrates’ life and work. The result of such an effort is not necessarily realistic, even if consistent.*

People here dismiss the New Testament out of hand, but then accept Plato with little doubt. Plato was well known (and should be well known) for making shit up to prove a point- see Atlantis. Perhaps he made up Socrates? And who is to say that Plato wrote what is attributed to him? Much stuff attributed to him is dubious.

Yes, and John would have been about 90 or so. There is evidence he lived to about 100 AD, making him 94 or so. Old, yes, but out of 13 guys, the fact that one made it that old isn’t unusual. No doubt John’s recollections were edited and put in final form by his own Apostles.

No, that makes no sense. Virtually all scholars agree that the verse Matthew quotes cannot be found in the Tanakh, even allowing for the way he shoehorns verses into alleged prophecies, so even if it was in some sort of lost apocrypha, it couldn’t have been very important. There would be no motive to make something that obscure the most important fact of his secular biography.

Also, Matthew is the only gospel that tries to make Nazareth into a fulfilled prophecy. Mark, written before Matthew, simply says he was from Nazareth, without even mentioning that he was allegedly born in Bethlehem, which is MUCH more important to his Messianic credentials. Luke goes through gymnastics, including making up a ridiculous census requiring all Romans (which, by the way, Galileeans were not) to take a possibly months-long journey to wherever their ancestors lived a thousand years earlier, to get Jesus born in Bethlehem, but just notes as a mundane fact that Mary and Joseph lived in Nazareth at the time, without any effort to claim that it was significant.

There are also passages in more than one gospel that say Jesus was not able to perform his usual miracles in Nazareth, because the people there knew him and his family, and were not prepared to believe that the kid they had known was the Messiah. That is IMO fairly strong evidence that his alleged miracles elsewhere were on the order of what you see TV faith healers do today (if not completely legendary), and the last thing you would expect if the story was complete fiction.

Why do you think those few people who were of age around 30-33ad and were members of a Christian Church 40 years later are also very likely to be people who for some reason are quite sure they know everything every itinerant Jewish preacher did in Judea during the time in question? And then supposing they were, and they spoke up, why do you think any of the other great majority of members of the church would care to listen?

More likely the thought would be “I never heard of this, it must have happened on the other side of town”–assuming there was any thought at all. Even more likely the thought would be “I don’t really care if this is actually true or not because this is the right community for me”–again, IF there was a thought at all.

I cannot see how a lack of importance follows from our not currently having a record of it.

In the* Antiquities of the Jews*, Josephus refers to the stoning of “James the brother of Jesus”.* So, a Jew- who didnt care at all for Christians- wrote that James was executed and he was the Brother of Jesus.
Josephus is one of the bedrocks of Roman history. Throw him out, and about 1/3 of what we “know” about the Roman Empire at that time is also gone. So, pretty much that means all of Roman history is “Allegedly”. :rolleyes:

wiki: Modern scholarship has almost universally acknowledged the authenticity of the reference to “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James”[13] and has rejected its being the result of later interpolation

You were claiming that “There is absolutely nothing implausible at all about the very idea that someone might have simply made up these stories ca 40 or 50ad” and that “what we do have is absolutely compatible with something like that having happened in the case of Jesus.” Since the book of Acts is part of “what we do have,” I want to know how it fits into your theory.

To my recollection, none of that is known to be the case.

I mean, there’s probably an interesting discussion to be had about Acts but for now I can stipulate that it’s a largely accurate retelling of much of early Christian history. Can you let me know if that seems to you to be incompatible with something I said before?

Splitter!

per Suetonius “Punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition.” about AD64 or so.

It’s true that the number of martyrs given by some early Christian writers have come under doubt. No one doubts that they* occurred. *

(1) Acts is a sequel to the gospel of Luke, written by the same person. Why would that person follow a book of complete fabrications with a book of largely accurate history?

(2) Some of the people in Acts (e.g. Peter) were said to have been personal followers of Jesus. How do you explain their actions in that book if Jesus never existed?

Nonsense.

I did, I noticed that citation needed.

And that one.

Nonsense. It wouldn’t work, first off, and the Romans didn’t think he was real, in any case. And they why would they bother? Do you tell insects why they don’t belong in your house, or do you squash them?

Again, it’s laughable to think that they would bother checking execution records from 30 years earlier. Just think of the logistics of that. Send a scribe to Bum Fuck Judea and have him go through stacks of rotting paper from a generation ago? If they even still existed? It’s goofy.

I don’t necessarily accept Socrates as having existed. I think it’s at least as likely he didn’t.

Well, now I’m arguing the other side, but your claim is not reasonable. There is no comparison to our age and 1st century Palestine. There was no internet, let alone TV, let alone even newspapers. Most people never went more than a few miles from the place they were born in their entire lives, and they had no way to fact check any claim about almost anything that happened outside their village.

The number of manuscript copies of the Gospels available in the lifetime of anyone who could possibly have known Jesus was probably a dozen or so, and they were in Greek, so the chances are that a villager from Nazareth could ever see one, let alone read it, were negligible.

And what if somebody did dispute it? What if some apostle was preaching in a Jerusalem gathering of early Christians in 90 CE, and some old man wandered in and shouted, “That’s a lot of crap!” Which do you think would happen – that the Christians would immediately go home and stop believing, or that they would throw the old guy out and go on with the service?

Finally, look at what’s happening today, when we DO have the internet and TV and all that, and checking facts takes only seconds. We still have people, millions of them, who believe Obama is a Kenyan Muslim.

So no, the argument that if it was false, it wouldn’t have persisted, is just not plausible.

. The Roman writer Tacitus, who was born in the year 56 AD, mentions how the Emperor Nero blamed the Christians, who were a despised sect, for the burning of Rome in the year 64 AD, saying:

He was told that by someone. Like maybe a follower of Christ. You get that all it would take for that is for someone who believed to talk to him, right?

I’m not talking about forgetting Josephus. I’m saying that he didn’t see James get stoned. He was told it as a fact. And if there is one thing I know about religious people, is they state their beliefs as fact.

Which means that Josephus spoke to an early Christian at some point. That’s all.

I believe in a Creator (God) that can create a universe surely if he can do that raising Jesus from the dead is not a problem and performing a few miracles through Jesus not very difficult.
I have a very basic faith, if God wants it to happen it will. People will say that the story of Jesus is outrageous but they forget he said nothing is done by him but through him by God

Because important scriptures were preserved – some parts of the Bible are over 3000 years old. And you also have to explain why if it was important, and if the other gospel writers knew that Jesus was from Nazareth (which they did), why was Matthew the only one who mentioned the alleged prophecy? If Luke was willing to incorporate some hazy memory of a census into his story, why didn’t he incorporate the famous prophecy of Nazareth?

I’m thinking about it the other way around, to be honest. If you discard the supernatural stuff, the raising the dead and multiplying food and so on, as the natural tall tales the followers of a guru would tell, he didn’t do anything all that impressive during his short life.

He died because eh didn’t even manage to be more popular than some random highwayman called Barrabas, didn’t he?

I wish I had read this post first. My sentiments exactly, so I’m wasting my time here.