# Jesus Plus Nothing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 1, 2004, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-plus-nothing/231953 "2004-03-01T18:37:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![presidebt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c37758/32.png) [@presidebt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/presidebt)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-plus-nothing/231953/1 "2004-03-01T18:37:42Z")
In [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=176312&highlight=Jesus+Plus+Nothing) thread, someone made reference to an article I named (but did not, unfortunately, provide a link to) called [Jesus Plus Nothing](http://www.harpers.org/JesusPlusNothing.html), by Jeffrey Sharlet, and originally published in Harpers Magazine (March 2003). The last post in the thead links the article (thank you!), but the discussion did not continue after that. Recently, one of my professors (who spouts the worst sort anti-liberal propoganda, generally without enough substance for students to research it themselves and form their own opinion) decried the left’s worries of a looming theocracy as “paranoid” and “conspiracy theory.” Harper’s is not exactly known as a conspiracy theory rag, though it does lean liberal. However, Sharlet’s article is an _eyewitness account_ of such a theocracy in the making. I doubt most people would refute that politically motivated religious persons, especially of the fundamentalist variety, are seeking and have long sought political power to force their religious views into law. However, perhaps I am wrong in that assumption. What do dopers think of this article and the information contained therein? Is there reason to fear religious political domination or do you think this is “conspiracy theory?” Speaking for myself, I have been haunted by this article for almost a year, and as a citizen of a state that straddles the Mason Dixon line, and which is heavily influenced by the Bible Belt politics of the south, I have to say I’m worried. I’d like to find out more information about this “Family” and especially about its history and the press it has (or hasn’t, as the case may be) received. I’ll probably be back later to post any results of my research. Note: I know it often happens that people post their opinion without actually reading any of the links in an OP, but I would politely request that those offering their opinion at least read \*part \* of the article before posting. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-plus-nothing/231953/2 "2004-03-01T19:13:24Z")
It’s a very scary article. However, in the aftermath of Jayson Blair, Janet Cooke, Stephen Glass, Patricia Smith, and Jay Forman, I tend to not believe very scary articles that fulfill all the worst beliefs of one political dogma or another. The article plays far too well upon the social prejudices and knee-jerk dogmas of US liberalism. It fits what one political dogma would expect to find far too well. This is much like some of the conspiracy pieces written by Stephen Glass, to that extent. I suggest reading the article at [http://slate.msn.com/id/2074/](http://slate.msn.com/id/2074/) for more information on how Glass pulled off his stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-plus-nothing/231953/3 "2004-03-01T19:17:39Z")
I’m feeling extremely conflicted after reading this. Half of me thinks: “Oh no! People trying to use faith to make the world a better place! Run away! Run away!” And the other half thinks: “On no! People trying to use faith to make the world a better place! Run away! Run away!” ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-plus-nothing/231953/4 "2004-03-01T19:58:04Z")
> [@](#): > > I doubt most people would refute that politically motivated religious persons, especially of the fundamentalist variety, are seeking and have long sought political power to force their religious views into law. Not all the article came up when I linked, so I may have missed the part where the author describes how “the family” is attempting to force their religious views into law. Also, given the religious posturing of our current Chief Executive, I find it a bit odd that the article does not seek to strongly link the White House to this organization, although again I may have missed a part of the article where such a claim was made. While “the family” comes off as more than a bit creepy (surely the author’s intention), what I read sounds a lot like the sort of scaremongering that goes on about the Bilderberg group, and the article reads like nothing so much as the “Red under the bed” stories of the '50s, but with fundie Christians as the villains. Based on what I read via the link, I fail to see the imminent overthrow of the government by a theocracy, at least one headed by this outfit. Sounds mostly like yet another special interest lobby trying to cozy up to power, and probably bears some watching. I have no additional information, however, that would allow me to make a definitive judgement as to whether the group mentioned in the article is a threat to the democratic process or not. ---
**Author:** ![presidebt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c37758/32.png) [@presidebt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/presidebt)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-plus-nothing/231953/5 "2004-03-01T20:59:51Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Not all the article came up when I linked, so I may have missed the part where the author describes how “the family” is attempting to force their religious views into law. Strange, it works for me, and offers the entire article plus notes. Perhaps someone can help figure out what’s going on, someone with more technical skill than I. The “how” of it, according to my interpretation of the article, is that there are quiet conversions going on, have been for decades, whereby politicians (not just in the US) are approached and preached to about the glory of Jesus and the importance of believing as they do. In addition to their meetings, which generally operate under the radar, members are "asked not to speak about the group or [quote] its activities" To wit: > [@](#): > > There they forge “relationships” beyond the din of vox populi (the Family’s leaders consider democracy a manifestation of ungodly pride) and “throw away religion” in favor of the truths of the Family. Declaring God’s covenant with the Jews broken, the group’s core members call themselves “the new chosen.” > [@](#): > > Also, given the religious posturing of our current Chief Executive, I find it a bit odd that the article does not seek to strongly link the White House to this organization, although again I may have missed a part of the article where such a claim was made. It seems to me that the pervasiveness of this group precludes focusing just on White House ties, but it does include references to the Bush family’s ties with them. Here are some names from the article of people involved with this: > [@](#): > > Senators Don Nickles (R., Okla.), Charles Grassley (R., Iowa), Pete Domenici (R., N.Mex.), John Ensign (R., Nev.), James Inhofe (R., Okla.), Bill Nelson (D., Fla.), and Conrad Burns (R., Mont.) are referred to as “members,” as are Representatives Jim DeMint (R., S.C.), Frank Wolf (R., Va.), Joseph Pitts (R., Pa.), Zach Wamp (R., Tenn.), and Bart Stupak (D., Mich.). > > George H.W. Bush…Doug Coe…Tom Phillips, then the C.E.O. of arms manufacturer Raytheon, and Ken Olsen, the founder and president of Digital Equipment Corporation… And many, many more, including several world leaders. Also, Sharlet notes that: > [@](#): > > The organization has operated under many guises, some active, some defunct: National Committee for Christian Leadership, International Christian Leadership, the National Leadership Council, Fellowship House, the Fellowship Foundation, the National Fellowship Council, the International Foundation. If these things are true, that makes this movement little more than a parasitic disease on the body politic. > [@](#): > > While “the family” comes off as more than a bit creepy (surely the author’s intention), what I read sounds a lot like the sort of scaremongering that goes on about the Bilderberg group, and the article reads like nothing so much as the “Red under the bed” stories of the '50s, but with fundie Christians as the villains. Sharlet’s website is [http://www.killingthebuddha.com/](http://www.killingthebuddha.com/) _He is_ concerned with the effects of religion on poltics. He has long had an interest in religion, and is a Jewish man who has considered it important to investigate these claims of Jesus with an open mind. He was _invited_ by members of this group to live at Ivanwald _because_ of this. They assumed he was one of them because of his interest in Jesus. According to Sharlet, they thought he was a Jew that “got it”. I got the distinct impression reading the article that Sharlet was surprised to stumble across this information, and was not looking for it with the deliberate intention of selling a “scare” story. Again, I could be wrong, and welcome any evidence to the contrary. > [@](#): > > Based on what I read via the link, I fail to see the imminent overthrow of the government by a theocracy, at least one headed by this outfit. I don’t think Sharlet is suggesting there will be some revolution-style overthrow. I think he’s suggesting that there is an insidious and covert movement operating with the intention of infiltrating power positions. What other end could they possibly be after other than Christian-style legislation and leadership? They even admit themselves: > [@](#): > > “People separate it out,” he warned Tiahrt. “‘Oh, okay, I got religion, that’s private.’ As if Jesus doesn’t know anything about building highways, or Social Security. We gotta take Jesus out of the religious wrapping.” > > “All right, how do we do that?” Tiahrt asked. > > “A covenant,” Doug answered. The congressman half-smiled, as if caught between confessing his ignorance and pretending he knew what Doug was talking about. “Like the Mafia,” Doug clarified. “Look at the strength of their bonds.” He made a fist and held it before Tiahrt’s face. Tiahrt nodded, squinting. “See, for them it’s honor,” Doug said. “For us, it’s Jesus.” and > [@](#): > > “You guys,” David said, “are here to learn how to rule the world.” ---
**Author:** ![presidebt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c37758/32.png) [@presidebt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/presidebt)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-plus-nothing/231953/6 "2004-03-02T01:40:01Z")
Here are some links to other sources that discuss this: [Meet ‘The Family’](http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16167) [An Interview with Jeffrey Sharlet](http://www.guerrillanews.com/counter_intelligence/doc1760.html) [An L.A. Times story from 2002](http://www.toobeautiful.org/lat_020927.html) (includes information on the groups founder and history) Several articles, according to the Sharlet interview, I can’t access right now, but I’ll look for them when I go to work at the Library: > [@](#): > > The New Republic did an exposé in the late 60’s, early 70’s, and no one really followed up. Robert Scheer did a piece on it in Playboy in the 1970’s. NOW what do people think? I continue to be shocked that this story (from the various sources) fails rouse even people’s attention, let alone their ire. What does it take to get people to pay attention? Do we have to put a big picture of a penis on Ivanwald’s facade and call the Washington Post? Crash the National Prayer Breakfast with some sort of rude political stunt? ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-plus-nothing/231953/7 "2004-03-02T04:36:25Z")
> [@presidebt](#): > > NOW what do people think? I continue to be shocked that this story (from the various sources) fails rouse even people’s attention, let alone their ire. What does it take to get people to pay attention? Do we have to put a big picture of a penis on Ivanwald’s facade and call the Washington Post? Crash the National Prayer Breakfast with some sort of rude political stunt? If you’re going to crash that party, at least make sure it’s witty. One thing I find very tedious about so many left-wing activists is that they’ve abandoned their sense of humor. Thus, they unintentionally generate sympathy for their targets. However, if one can come up with something that is vaguely scandalous (not grossly so), not blatantly mean-spirited, and could be laughed at by Joebob Nascar Fan… Unfortunately, nearly all political “humor” these days is nothing more than preaching to the choir. ---
**Author:** ![presidebt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c37758/32.png) [@presidebt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/presidebt)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-plus-nothing/231953/8 "2004-03-02T14:40:07Z")
> [@Dogface](#): > > If you’re going to crash that party, at least make sure it’s witty. One thing I find very tedious about so many left-wing activists is that they’ve abandoned their sense of humor. Thus, they unintentionally generate sympathy for their targets. However, if one can come up with something that is vaguely scandalous (not grossly so), not blatantly mean-spirited, and could be laughed at by Joebob Nascar Fan… > > Unfortunately, nearly all political “humor” these days is nothing more than preaching to the choir. Yeah, I’m working on it. Something witty that is. And I hear you about political humor these days. That said, I’m going to try _one more time_ to get a discussion going on this story. I figure if I give The Family’s technique a really cool name, maybe people will be interested. So here goes… **What do Dopers think about Trickle-Down Spirituality?** ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-plus-nothing/231953/9 "2004-03-02T14:52:38Z")
> [@](#): > > I continue to be shocked that this story (from the various sources) fails rouse even people’s attention, let alone their ire. Well, I’m not; firstly, is there anything clearly illegal about it? Can this be proven to be a cabal or involve influence peddling like the infamous P2 scandal in Italy some years back? People have all sorts of day-to-day things to worry about and this one just basically flies under the radar. Except for some muttering about Suharto, it seems a bit difficult to ascertain just what the real influence of this outfit is. Now, after having read a bit more, I do think most would agree that based on the linked material, “the Family” perhaps has some influence with at least a few members of Congress. For me, the main problem is its secretive nature, and the mere fact of shining a light on it would tend to make it go away. Seems to me an opponent running a race against an incumbent with ties to this organization could may some political hay talking about the secret crypto-fascist society that his or her opponent apparently belongs to. We’ll see, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-plus-nothing/231953/10 "2004-03-02T15:19:44Z")
I guess there’s just nothing surprising here; neither that a “fundie mafia” exists, nor that it has influence in politics. I mean, a giant swath of the country is called the “Bible Belt” ferchrissakes, and I’ve seen these peoples’ kindred spirits walking the streets. I wish some of them had an armed guard too, but what can you do, y’know? It’s a free country. Y’figure no lefties have ever been in kahoots with unsavory organized-crime types? Does Joe Kennedy ring a bell? I hear he purchased a few votes for his kid. The pots calling all the kettles black just doesn’t help things, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![presidebt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c37758/32.png) [@presidebt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/presidebt)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-plus-nothing/231953/11 "2004-03-02T16:07:33Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > I guess there’s just nothing surprising here; neither that a “fundie mafia” exists, nor that it has influence in politics. I mean, a giant swath of the country is called the “Bible Belt” ferchrissakes, and I’ve seen these peoples’ kindred spirits walking the streets. I wish some of them had an armed guard too, but what can you do, y’know? It’s a free country. > > Y’figure no lefties have ever been in kahoots with unsavory organized-crime types? Does Joe Kennedy ring a bell? I hear he purchased a few votes for his kid. > > The pots calling all the kettles black just doesn’t help things, IMO. You must have missed the absence of partisan jabbing in my posts, and in the articles. The point is, politicans on both sides of the aisle are involved in this, whether because they argee with them or are coerced. And I’m happy you’re aware that a “fundie mafia” does exists, but if you’ll look at my OP, you’ll see I made reference to someone calling this notion “paranoid.” It _doesn’t_ seem to be getting a lot of air time and when it does, certain people just dismiss it as paranoid, while other people claim they have too much other stuff to worry about. When does it become priority? When every leader on the earth, despot and democratic leader alike, are under the thumb of people who admire the likes of Hitler and Genghis (sp?) Kahn? Or maybe when they’ve successfully sold the notion that democracy is a “manifestation of ungodly pride” and succeed in deflating democratic ideals from the inside? So, have you got anything meaningful to add? I’m not being sarcastic, I’m really interested in dialogue. ---
**Author:** ![presidebt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c37758/32.png) [@presidebt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/presidebt)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-plus-nothing/231953/12 "2004-03-02T16:36:05Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > firstly, is there anything clearly illegal about it? Not that I’m aware of, though that doesn’t mean there is no recourse. Keeping it in the public consciousness via dialogue would help, as would encouraging voters to be aware of their congresspersons involvement (if it exists) with The Family and their level of participation. Spread the word. > [@](#): > > Can this be proven to be a cabal or involve influence peddling like the infamous P2 scandal in Italy some years back? People have all sorts of day-to-day things to worry about and this one just basically flies under the radar. Except for some muttering about Suharto, it seems a bit difficult to ascertain just what the real influence of this outfit is. Right, under the radar is The Way for these people. That doesn’t mean it’s impossible to find out what they are doing, but it takes a little more paying attention that the average American (and perhaps even the average doper) would like. Your cabal question is an interesting one. I plan on taking a closer look at that later today. And as far the real influence, it said quite clearly in the article that many, not just a few, of Senators and Representatives, as well as people in every level of office, including every president since Eisenhower have been “befriended” by this group. It also explained that these people work in “terrorist-like cells” and, because of that, and the secritive nature, they have a great deal of influence. > [@](#): > > Now, after having read a bit more, I do think most would agree that based on the linked material, “the Family” perhaps has some influence with at least a few members of Congress. Take a look at this if you think it’s just “a few members of congress,” it’s from the Times article I cited: > [@](#): > > He [Abraham Vereide, founder] took his idea to Washington, D.C., in 1942. A small group of House members began praying together. A Senate group followed. Vereide believed that the small prayer groups could be used to help establish personal contacts with leaders throughout the world. > > Pentagon officials secretly met at the group’s Washington Fellowship House in 1955 to plan a worldwide anti-communism propaganda campaign endorsed by the CIA, documents from the Fellowship archives and the Eisenhower Presidential Library show. Then known as International Christian Leadership, the group financed a film called “Militant Liberty” that was used by the Pentagon abroad. > > Intimate prayer groups begun by the Fellowship still meet regularly and privately, at the House of Representatives, Senate and throughout federal agencies in Washington. President Eisenhower, persuaded by his campaign manager, became the first U.S. president to attend a prayer breakfast in 1953–part of what the Senate chaplain at the time called a “Return-to-God Movement.” Every president since has made an appearance at least once, turning the breakfast into a worldwide attraction for the prayerful and political alike. Their momentum has only grown since then. They still hold prayer meetings in the Senate and House and possibly, the Pentagon. The cells hold prayer meetings everywhere they can. Take a closer look at the L.A. Times article. They drop names left and right (literally), as does Sharlet. This is not a “few members of congress.” > [@](#): > > For me, the main problem is its secretive nature, and the mere fact of shining a light on it would tend to make it go away. Seems to me an opponent running a race against an incumbent with ties to this organization could may some political hay talking about the secret crypto-fascist society that his or her opponent apparently belongs to. We’ll see, I guess. The secretive nature is what bothers me as well. If an article came out that a secret group of communists were quietly courting the worlds leaders, there would be OUTRAGE. But this, eh, this is okay for some reason. The main problem I see with a political candidate just outing a Family-backed politician is that they would be easily dismissed as “paranoid,” that is, **if** they could get any press time at all. ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-plus-nothing/231953/13 "2004-03-02T16:37:05Z")
Religious organizations trying to gain secular power give me the creeps, especially when they are somewhat secretive such as these people. They also seem to be a very elitist organization which I must admit doesn’t set very well with me. I particularly like the status of the “girls” and their status in The Family, “Now don’t worry your pretty little head, dear. Politics are a guy thing.” On the other hand, we live in a democracy so I suppose it is alright for people to join such organizations if they wish. I do worry about religious people gaining power in the US and making decisions based on their beliefs. I’m living in a more-or-less theocracy (Saudi) at the moment and I’d hate to see the US wind up with something similar. The thought of a superpower being run by Old-Testament, God-fearing Christians should worry anyone. Every time I get on a rant about this kind of thing I feel like I should be making tinfoil hats in my spare time but this kind of thing really does alarm me. Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![presidebt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c37758/32.png) [@presidebt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/presidebt)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-plus-nothing/231953/14 "2004-03-02T16:45:49Z")
Thanks for your comments Testy. It must be tough living in Saudi Arabia. > [@Testy](#): > > Every time I get on a rant about this kind of thing I feel like I should be making tinfoil hats in my spare time but this kind of thing really does alarm me. I know, that’s generally how I felt for a long time too, but then I stumbled across this and I thought, well, maybe it’s not a tinfoil hat thing. Certainly these sources offer us something to counteract the “paranoid” accusastions with, which may ultimately force a real discussion. We’ll see. Again, thanks. I was starting to feel rather alone… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![FriendRob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecc23a/32.png) [@FriendRob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendRob)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-plus-nothing/231953/15 "2004-03-02T17:09:52Z")
I’m with the other posters: So what? Some politicians are getting together to pray. So what? They are trying to influence legislation on the basis of their religious beliefs. Well, I would try to influence legislation on the basis of my (non-religious) beliefs, too, as would anyone with integrity. The fact that I disagree vehemently with their beliefs doesn’t change the fact that they have a right to their own beliefs and to try to influence others. I seriously doubt that such a group would ever be successful in establishing a “theocracy”, even if that is what they were trying to do. There is too much variety of opinion among our legislators, and we are protected by the Constitution from the establishment of religion. The Supreme Court would invalidate any attempt to write religion into law. (I hope.) ---
**Author:** ![presidebt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c37758/32.png) [@presidebt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/presidebt)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-plus-nothing/231953/16 "2004-03-02T17:30:11Z")
> [@FriendRob](#): > > I’m with the other posters: So what? > > Some politicians are getting together to pray. So what? They are trying to influence legislation on the basis of their religious beliefs. Well, I would try to influence legislation on the basis of my (non-religious) beliefs, too, as would anyone with integrity. The fact that I disagree vehemently with their beliefs doesn’t change the fact that they have a right to their own beliefs and to try to influence others. So, you have this kind of access to the power elite? You can just pick up the phone and call, say, George W. Bush or Dick Cheney, and _get_ them? You find it easy to gain audience with foreign despots? You think it’s a matter of “integrity” to encourage keeping totalitarian dictators in power because you can “do business with them?” I really don’t think so, but I don’t know you. That’s what’s going on here. Did you even read the article? Or any of the subsequent sources? > [@](#): > > I seriously doubt that such a group would ever be successful in establishing a “theocracy”, even if that is what they were trying to do. There is too much variety of opinion among our legislators, and we are protected by the Constitution from the establishment of religion. The Supreme Court would invalidate any attempt to write religion into law. (I hope.) History is filled with serious doubts and underestimations. Why are you so willing to discount this? Won’t you give just a slice of your time to investigate? Or are you just another cynical American (or citizen of another “developed” nation) who can’t be bothered? ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-plus-nothing/231953/17 "2004-03-02T19:47:43Z")
> [@FriendRob](#): > > I’m with the other posters: So what? > > Some politicians are getting together to pray. So what? They are trying to influence legislation on the basis of their religious beliefs. Well, I would try to influence legislation on the basis of my (non-religious) beliefs, too, as would anyone with integrity. The fact that I disagree vehemently with their beliefs doesn’t change the fact that they have a right to their own beliefs and to try to influence others. > > I seriously doubt that such a group would ever be successful in establishing a “theocracy”, even if that is what they were trying to do. There is too much variety of opinion among our legislators, and we are protected by the Constitution from the establishment of religion. The Supreme Court would invalidate any attempt to write religion into law. (I hope.) To me, the thought of politicians praying together is mildly alarming. There may be nothing sinister in the actual prayers but it **is** an intrusion by religion into government. I take your point about integrity requiring one to persuade others to their own beliefs and more-or-less agree with it. Persuasion doesn’t really bother me, it is the legislation part. There is a seven page thread in the Pit on legislating a conservative Christian viewpoint started by **Gobear**. As far as the US ever becoming a theocracy, I agree with you. It isn’t something I would expect either. There is a wide difference spectrum of products and activities that could be made illegal under various “decency laws” before we could actually be called a thecracy. Allowing any religion an official place in the government could be a slippery slope or camel’s nose kind of situation. Regards Testy