# Jesus saves **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2014, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-saves/706922 "2014-12-11T06:06:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-saves/706922/41 "2014-12-11T19:12:11Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > To attempt a serious answer to this, I went back and looked at Chapter 3 (“Salvation”) of Marcus Borg’s book [Speaking Christian: Why Christian Words Have Lost Their Meaning and Power - And How They Can Be Restored](http://www.amazon.com/Speaking-Christian-Words-Meaning-Restored/dp/0061976555/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1418320051&sr=1-7). > > He says that, for modern Americans, “salvation” (as in “Jesus saves”) is understood as meaning that Jesus saves us from our sins so that we can go to Heaven rather than Hell after we die—and, furthermore, that such a concept of salvation had only negative associations for 80 percent of an intergenerational discussion group he spoke with—but that this is not the main meaning found in the Bible. > > For one thing, the term/concept “salvation” appears frequently in the Old Testament without any reference to an afterlife. There, it means **liberation from bondage** , **return from exile** , and/or **rescue from peril**. These meanings continue in the New Testament (in the Gospels and in the letters of Paul), where salvation also has the connotation of transformation (healing, restoring, etc.), both of individuals and of society. Best answer in the thread, and completely ignored. “Saves us from hell” or “saves us from the damnation he cursed us with in the first place” so misses the point. The classic meaning is that in Jesus, God saves us from ourselves. Freeing us from bondage to our own sinful natures and bringing us back out of exile, restoring us to the communion with Him what we had willingly turned from. Salvation is immediate, in the here and now - not about some future age. It’s like how so many people (even Christians) equate Jesus’ references to “the Kingdom of Heaven/God” to the afterlife, when he is talking about present reality. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-saves/706922/42 "2014-12-11T19:34:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Sort of like getting hooked on the best smack in the universe then getting cut off cold turkey, with no chance of getting unhooked for all of eternity? > > Lovely. It’s even worse than that. Many Christians follow the idea of divine grace. They believe you can’t choose to believe in God because that would be a human action and nothing a human can do can compel God to do something. So you can only have faith if God chooses to give it to you. So you can only be saved by believing in God and you can only believe in God if God chooses to give you that ability. Which pretty much means that all of the people who don’t believe in God are doing so because God chose them for that. And then God condemns them to eternal damnation for their non-belief - which he forced them to have. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-saves/706922/43 "2014-12-11T19:44:59Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > From what I dimly recall of my own childhood religious education, this all has to do with Adam, Eve, a talking snake, and a magic apple. This wasn’t just any ordinary talking snake, it was a snake that could _ **sell** _, a snake of such consummate selling skill that, if they had TVs back then, the snake would be flogging kitchen gadgets on late-night infomercials. And what the snake sold Eve was what we would now call “a bill of goods”. If the talking snake hadn’t been so persuasive, or Eve hadn’t been such a gullible moron, or Adam hadn’t been such a naive dumbass, we’d all be in Paradise and wouldn’t need saving. But the talking snake scammed them both into committing Sin, God got pissed off, and we are all guilty by association of something called Original Sin. Why it’s my fault that the first couple on earth were such hopeless simpletons is beyond me, but there it is. Personally, if I ran into a snake in the woods and it started talking and trying to get me to piss off the Creator of the Universe, I’d pick up a large rock and that would be the end of that. Keep in mind, at the time, the snake had arms and legs. Might have put up more of a fight than you expected. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-saves/706922/44 "2014-12-11T20:14:29Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Best answer in the thread, and completely ignored. “Saves us from hell” or “saves us from the damnation he cursed us with in the first place” so misses the point. The classic meaning is that in Jesus, God saves us from ourselves. Freeing us from bondage to our own sinful natures and bringing us back out of exile, restoring us to the communion with Him what we had willingly turned from. Salvation is immediate, in the here and now - not about some future age. It’s like how so many people (even Christians) equate Jesus’ references to “the Kingdom of Heaven/God” to the afterlife, when he is talking about present reality. First, none of this explains why the wages of sin are death - or is that statement inoperative. Second, if we all have sinful natures, who gave us sinful natures? I never asked for one. If God built a design defect into us, don’t blame us for it. Third, isn’t eternal torment kind of extreme? Especially for the smaller sins? Fourth, if God cares so much about this, maybe he could be a bit less coy about telling us? Computer manuals translated from Chinese are clearer than the NT, and the authors of the manuals had the advantage of actually seeing what they were writing about. The bafflegab in the Bible is not exactly convincing, and not exactly likely to motivate most rational people to believe. If I show up in front of God, my first words would be “Lord, buddy, letting me tell you about this thing called social media.” ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-saves/706922/45 "2014-12-11T21:07:59Z")
_Knockknockknock_ “Who is it?” “It’s Jesus.” “What do you want?” “Let me in.” “Why?” “I’m going to save you.” “From what?” “From what I’m going to do to you if you don’t let me in!” ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-saves/706922/46 "2014-12-11T21:46:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Which doesn’t appear to have been necessary. Why did Jesus have to appear in human form? If God decided to appear as Jesus, didn’t that indicate he had already decided to forgive humanity? I’ve always hears it explained that it respected the autonomy granted to God’s creations by preserving humanity’s free will – one can choose not to be saved if one so wishes. I’ve never understood the sects that believe in predestination. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-saves/706922/47 "2014-12-11T22:16:39Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I’ve always hears it explained that it respected the autonomy granted to God’s creations by preserving humanity’s free will – one can choose not to be saved if one so wishes. > > I’ve never understood the sects that believe in predestination. “You have the free will to bet on any horse you wish to in the sixth race.” “Great. Who is racing?” “I can’t tell you.” “Why?” “One of the horses is 1 - 2, and if I tell you you won’t have the free will not to bet on him.” Of course with Christianity we don’t know whether there actually is a race or even a track. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-saves/706922/48 "2014-12-11T22:27:41Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > “You have the free will to bet on any horse you wish to in the sixth race.” > “Great. Who is racing?” > “I can’t tell you.” > “Why?” > “One of the horses is 1 - 2, and if I tell you you won’t have the free will not to bet on him.” > > Of course with Christianity we don’t know whether there actually is a race or even a track. And you have to bet the whole shebang. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-saves/706922/49 "2014-12-11T22:37:41Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Of course with Christianity we don’t know whether there actually is a race or even a track. It is indeed a leap of faith. No Christian should be arguing otherwise. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > And you have to bet the whole shebang. That’s true for everyone, though. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-saves/706922/50 "2014-12-11T23:11:25Z")
I love the idea of playing _advocatus diaboli_ for Christianity. It’s perverse as hell. > [@Voyager](#): > > First, none of this explains why the wages of sin are death - or is that statement inoperative. For the most part, “death” is really separation from god. It’s death in the sense of not joining god in eternity. > [@](#): > > Second, if we all have sinful natures, who gave us sinful natures? I never asked for one. If god built a design defect into us, don’t blame us for it. God gave us free will and a moral nature. But then Adam and Eve fucked it up, bringing sin and death and entropy into the world. More allegorically, we choose sin daily; god created us to have the ability to choose perfection, because he wanted us to have free will and a moral nature. If he had made us perfect we’d be angels, and he already had those. > [@](#): > > Third, isn’t eternal torment kind of extreme? Especially for the smaller sins? Of course. Mind you, there is a huge swath of (non-bloodthirsty) Christianity that does not embrace the concept of hell as torture, but as eternal darkness due to separation from god. Dead is just dead, not tormented. > [@](#): > > Fourth, if God cares so much about this, maybe he could be a bit less coy about telling us? Computer manuals translated from Chinese are clearer than the NT, and the authors of the manuals had the advantage of actually seeing what they were writing about. “The argument goes something like this: ‘I refuse to prove that I exist,’ says God, ‘for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing’.” At least according to Saint Dougie. If we assume that free will is paramount, and the core of our nature, then god’s speaking clearly and obviously would negate it, or at least pervert it. Meh. That’s the best I have time for, and I freely admit it ain’t great. But yeah, you’re right on all counts. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-saves/706922/51 "2014-12-11T23:55:00Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > It is indeed a leap of faith. No Christian should be arguing otherwise. When God is involved it is called having faith. When anything else is involved it is more like being a chump. I’m seeing a Bible movie with St. Paul played by W. C. Fields. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-saves/706922/52 "2014-12-12T00:08:21Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I love the idea of playing _advocatus diaboli_ for Christianity. It’s perverse as hell. I realize I’m addressing the advocate below, not you. > [@](#): > > For the most part, “death” is really separation from god. It’s death in the sense of not joining god in eternity. I covered that one already. Some Christians use a form of NewSpeak that would make Big Brother blush. > [@](#): > > God gave us free will and a moral nature. But then Adam and Eve fucked it up, bringing sin and death and entropy into the world. Which is why the actual existence of Adam and Eve is absolutely vital to Christianity. The creation of the universe might be a metaphor, but one hope we don’t get condemned to eternal damnation thanks to the actions of a metaphor. In Judaism the Garden works quite well as a metaphor. > [@](#): > > More allegorically, we choose sin daily; god created us to have the ability to choose perfection, because he wanted us to have free will and a moral nature. If he had made us perfect we’d be angels, and he already had those. As I understand it we do not have the ability to choose perfection. Only Jesus was perfect (give or take a fig tree.) Some men do not have a moral nature. In any case, if we do make a mistake, why can’t we atone for it? Why is it available only through Jesus? I’ve heard that for some reason God can’t forgive sin directly - pretty feeble God the Christians got there. > [@](#): > > Of course. Mind you, there is a huge swath of (non-bloodthirsty) Christianity that does not embrace the concept of hell as torture, but as eternal darkness due to separation from god. Dead is just dead, not tormented. But as you increase compassion you decrease the need for a savior. > [@](#): > > “The argument goes something like this: ‘I refuse to prove that I exist,’ says God, ‘for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing’.” At least according to Saint Dougie. If we assume that free will is paramount, and the core of our nature, then god’s speaking clearly and obviously would negate it, or at least pervert it. > > Meh. That’s the best I have time for, and I freely admit it ain’t great. But yeah, you’re right on all counts. So how come non-believers can often defend Christianity better than believers? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-saves/706922/53 "2014-12-12T00:31:34Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Which is why the actual existence of Adam and Eve is absolutely vital to Christianity. The creation of the universe might be a metaphor, but one hope we don’t get condemned to eternal damnation thanks to the actions of a metaphor. I see it the other way around. What sense does it make to get condemned to eternal damnation thanks to some other person long ago eating a literal piece of fruit? The only way the story of Adam and Eve has any hope of explaining anything or conveying truth about the human condition is if it’s read as allegorical or symbolic or mythical—though I certainly don’t feel competent to explain how. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-saves/706922/54 "2014-12-12T00:40:10Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > That’s the kicker, isn’t it? The Lord could have said, “you’re all saved, because I’m a nice guy.” But He made it much more complicated Why did Jesus have to “die for our sins,” why couldn’t he just have have a bad meal or something for our sins. Well, he died for our sins, but three days later he was back and better than ever. A more accurate phrase might be “Jesus had a shitty weekend for your sins.” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-saves/706922/55 "2014-12-12T01:26:46Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I see it the other way around. What sense does it make to get condemned to eternal damnation thanks to some other person long ago eating a literal piece of fruit? > > The only way the story of Adam and Eve has any hope of explaining anything or conveying truth about the human condition is if it’s read as allegorical or symbolic or mythical—though I certainly don’t feel competent to explain how. God made them more or less perfect, and by their free choice the disobeyed him. Since they are the parents of us all, we also suffer from their mistake. Yes, I understand the zillion ways this doesn’t make sense. But if we are all born sinful (which they seem to believe) when did we choose to be sinful? And if we never chose, why do we get punished for something we are created with? That’s the metaphor problem, no choice. It makes even less sense than the real Adam and Eve, and I suspect few fell back to the metaphor explanation until it had become obvious that there were no such people as Adam and Eve. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-saves/706922/56 "2014-12-12T01:33:57Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > Indian: If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell? > Priest: No, not if you did not know. > Indian: Then why did you tell me?–Ann Dillard > > Think of how many Christians would save, if they could just keep their mouth shut. But nooooooooooo :smack: 😉 On a serious note, a I asked a Catholic friend once what the official word was on those who never had an opportunity to receive the word. And his response was that “everyone is given a chance to know Jesus.” which he explained could happen after death. I always felt like that was a cop-out, and have wondered if that was really the Catholic word. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-saves/706922/57 "2014-12-12T01:42:29Z")
The thing I don’t understand is that if Jesus died for everyone’s sins, why isn’t everyone off the hook? So Jesus really doesn’t save anyone from hell. It’s the belief in Jesus that provides the salvation. Which renders the whole-dying-on-the-cross thing rather pointless, right? I mean, Jesus could have still performed all those miracles and reached out to all those people, and then done one last parlor trick to end all parlor tricks to convince everyone he was really the One. Something even more amazing than rising from the dead. Then he ascends into heaven with all those people watching. Scene. Then we fill in the questionnairre. Believe or not believe? It would be the same test that we have now, except there would be no guilt-trip about Jesus suffering on our behalf. What’s the point of having him suffering all day on a cross? It makes sense as symbolism (and it allows for such catchy phrases as “washed by the blood of the lamb”), but I’m failing to see how it translates into actual salvation when my ass is still supposedly going to hell for not believing in it. This didn’t make sense to me as a kid, and it still doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-saves/706922/58 "2014-12-12T02:34:17Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The thing I don’t understand is that if Jesus died for everyone’s sins, why isn’t everyone off the hook? Some (universalists, I guess) say they are. Others say that salvation is open to everybody, but God isn’t going to force it on anyone who refuses. Still others give various other answers. > [@](#): > > So Jesus really doesn’t save anyone from hell. It’s the belief in Jesus that provides the salvation. Which renders the whole-dying-on-the-cross thing rather pointless, right? If you’re trapped upstairs in a burning building, and I come along with a net and tell you to jump, and you jump because you believe the net will hold you, you wouldn’t say “The net didn’t save me; it’s the _belief_ in the net that saved me.” > [@](#): > > What’s the point of having him suffering all day on a cross? It makes sense as symbolism (and it allows for such catchy phrases as “washed by the blood of the lamb”), but I’m failing to see how it translates into actual salvation when my ass is still supposedly going to hell for not believing in it. I’m not sure how the cross “works,” either. But I do think salvation isn’t about “believing in _it_” but “believing in _Him_.” To quote from the same book I referred to earlier in the thread: [QUOTE=Marcus Borg] The modern meaning of _believe_ is very different from its meanings from Christian antiquity until the seventeenth century. In English, prior to about 1600, the verb _believe_ always had a person as its direct object, not a statement. It did not mean believing _that_ a statement is true, with varying degrees of certainty, but more like what we mean when we say to somebody, “I believe _in_ you.” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-saves/706922/59 "2014-12-12T02:48:13Z")
> [@Vashbul](#): > > You know what you did. Even if you don’t, Jesus does, and he can save you for anything he wants, or from anything he wants. Or not save you! So you better get on Jesus’s good side. I think he’s left handed, so that’s where I would stick. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-saves/706922/60 "2014-12-12T03:25:11Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > If you’re trapped upstairs in a burning building, and I come along with a net and tell you to jump, and you jump because you believe the net will hold you, you wouldn’t say “The net didn’t save me; it’s the _belief_ in the net that saved me.” This makes no sense as an analogy, sorry. We are told we need to be grateful that Jesus provided the net and saved us. But we are told that unless we believe it happened, we are not saved. It would be like if you were to pull me out a perfectly fine building and you tell me, “I just saved you from a burning inferno! Are you grateful?” And when I don’t say thank you, you set me on fire. To be sure, I could avoid this fate by just saying the magic words. But why should I show gratitude towards an extortionist? It would be less eye-rolly if you ditched all the talk about your heroism and sacrifice on my behalf, and just kept it to a simple: If you believe I’m God, lots of heaven for you!" Because that’s essentially what it boils down to anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-saves/706922.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-saves/706922.md?page=4)