# Jesus vs. the Money Changers...what's the Beef? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 28, 2006, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-vs-the-money-changers-whats-the-beef/341932 "2006-01-28T00:34:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-vs-the-money-changers-whats-the-beef/341932/21 "2006-01-29T02:40:58Z")
Ya cuts into the profit, ya gets lynched and crucified. That seems to be the moral carried to conclusion. This was the turning point, Jesus’ breaking point; some say he was perfect, but this incident was the hypocrisy that broke the saviors body. Many Conservatives and Republicans fail to see the irony of their situation. ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-vs-the-money-changers-whats-the-beef/341932/22 "2006-01-29T02:44:04Z")
Polycarp - you write as if you had a number of sources that tend to make this all sort of clear to you. Are there, in fact, documents aside from the bible that flesh this all out for you/us? How do these stories get triangulated and verified? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-vs-the-money-changers-whats-the-beef/341932/23 "2006-01-29T02:57:17Z")
I’d still like to see some external evidence that anyone was making a dishonest profit. Should we assume that Jesus _did_ believe that sacrificing at the Temple was the only avenue to forgiveness of sins? Is it unreasonable to believe that his actions were a protest against the insitution itself? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-vs-the-money-changers-whats-the-beef/341932/24 "2006-01-29T03:08:23Z")
**DtC** : What you’ve written so far seems to take as an assumption that this actually happened. Might it not be at least as possible that the Gospel writers had some hidden meaning to be transmitted in this story? If so, what would that message be. Or, are your posts all to be taken metaphorically? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-vs-the-money-changers-whats-the-beef/341932/25 "2006-01-29T04:07:37Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > **DtC** : What you’ve written so far seems to take as an assumption that this actually happened. Might it not be at least as possible that the Gospel writers had some hidden meaning to be transmitted in this story? If so, what would that message be. Or, are your posts all to be taken metaphorically? Well, I as taking it as roughly historical partly for the sake of argument but also because some sort of Temple incident is one of the few actions attributed to Jesus in the Gospels that a majority of scholars believe is authentic (not all, though, Paula Friedrickson, for example, is one who believes it to be ahistorical). The Temple incident is independently attested in John as well as the synoptics (although John’s account differs in some notable ways) and it’s more or less taken for granted in the mainstream that if the crucifixion was historical (something that over 99% of NT scholars accept) then some kind of Temple incident is the most likely cause. If the incident was invented by Mark, then I think he would still be presenting the action as a symbolic protest (“destruction” even) of the Temple since one of Marks overriding themes is that Jesus, as the Son of Man, has the authority to forgive sins. That thesis, in itself, represents a denial of the authority of the Temple. Incidentally, to get an idea of one the proffered mythicist possibilities as to the origin of the Temple story, look at this striking passage from Josephus: > [@](#): > > there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, (23) began on a sudden to cry aloud, “A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!” This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, “Woe, woe to Jerusalem!” And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. > ([_Jewish Wars_ Book 6, ch. 5](http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/josephus/war6.html)) Now there are a several obvious differences between this story and the story in the Gospels, not the least of which is that it occurred in 62 CE, but some mythicists argue that Mark used Josephus as a source for some of his narrative details. This would require the dating of GMark to be pushed back from the commonly accepted range (c. 70 CE) to a much later date (some of them believe that Mark’s “little apocalypse” better fits details of the 2nd Jewish revolt in 135 CE). That is still a fringe position, though. Still…it’s a hell of an interesting passage. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-vs-the-money-changers-whats-the-beef/341932/26 "2006-01-29T04:52:58Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > This was the turning point, Jesus’ breaking point; some say he was perfect, but this incident was the hypocrisy that broke the saviors body. Many Conservatives and Republicans fail to see the irony of their situation. Where’s the hypocrisy? Forgiveness doesn’t mean turning a blind eye to the sin. You can’t forgive something if you don’t confront it - call it out - first. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-vs-the-money-changers-whats-the-beef/341932/27 "2006-01-29T05:07:09Z")
I’m sorry to confuse, I am referring to “hypocrisy” as the Direct Object. It wasn’t Jesus’ hyocrisy rather the hypocrisy of man ( - the sin of man) that broke his body. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-vs-the-money-changers-whats-the-beef/341932/28 "2006-01-29T05:51:26Z")
Also, to clarify, I am referring to Jesus’s point of imperfection in this sentence as wrath… anger was perhaps his downfall. That is of course only opinion. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-vs-the-money-changers-whats-the-beef/341932/29 "2006-01-29T15:40:45Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > What version of the Bible are you reading? It’s not any version I’ve ever read. Most of the time he shows far more patience than I’d show. Matthew 17 > [@](#): > > 14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a man, kneeling to him, saying, > > 15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is epileptic, and suffereth grievously; for oft-times he falleth into the fire, and off-times into the water. > > 16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. > > **17 And Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I bear with you?** bring him hither to me. Jesus basically saying, “Why am I surrounded by idjits?” The fig tree, Mark 11: > [@](#): > > 12 And on the morrow, when they were come out from Bethany, he hungered. > > 13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find anything thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for it was not the season of figs. > > 14 And he answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit from thee henceforward for ever. And his disciples heard it. > > … > > 20 And as they passed by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered away from the roots. > > 21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Rabbi, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away. That’s some serious road rage. Matthew 15 > [@](#): > > 10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.’ " > > 12Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?” > > 13He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14Leave them; they are blind guides.[e] If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” > > \*\*15Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.” > > 16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.\*\* 17"Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’ 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man ‘unclean’; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean.’ " I mean, I understand his plight–brain the size of a planet and all, and surrounded by numbskulls. Just look how Uncle Cecil talks. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-vs-the-money-changers-whats-the-beef/341932/30 "2006-01-29T15:56:58Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Could it be that Jesus thought sacrificing animals was wrong? “And I shall shall name you PETA…” ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-vs-the-money-changers-whats-the-beef/341932/31 "2006-01-29T16:56:17Z")
> [@Enola Straight](#): > > A question in my mind is how he did all this…overturning the monychangers’ tables, loosed the animals, and, IIRC started cracking a bullwhip…and not get arrested by the guards. ```auto EXT. TEMPLE -- DAY A fair-skinned, blue-eyed man in sweeping but plain robes leads a group of followers who smell like bait. This is JESUS THE CHRIST and his APOSTLES. TEMPLE GUARD #1 (to TG#2) Hey! Aren't those the guys that just knocked over money lenders' tables? TEMPLE GUARD #2 They do match the description. I'll call it in. (leaves to find patrol) TEMPLE GUARD #1 (at Jesus and his followers) You there! Halt in the name of Caeser! JESUS THE CHRIST Can I help you officer? TEMPLE GUARD #1 Let me see your identification! JESUS THE CHRIST You don't need to see our identification. TEMPLE GUARD #1 I don't need to see your identification. JESUS THE CHRIST These are not the apostles you're looking for. TEMPLE GUARD #1 These are not the apostles we're looking for. JESUS THE CHRIST Move along. TEMPLE GUARD #1 Move along, move along. JESUS and THE APOSTLES exit left. TEMPLE GUARD #2 enters right. TEMPLE GUARD #2 (returning) Backup is on the way. Hey, what the hell? Why did you let them go? TEMPLE GUARD #1 (puzzled) Uh, I don't think those were the guys we're looking for. TEMPLE GUARD #2 Sheesh! Did you fall for that old messiah mind trick again? You idiot! Last time we lost him when he started running across the river, this time you let him slip through our fingers! Lord Pilate is going to have your head! (edges away) ``` Yet again, George Lucas proves to be nothing more than a rank imitator. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-vs-the-money-changers-whats-the-beef/341932/32 "2006-01-29T18:58:15Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I’d still like to see some external evidence that anyone was making a dishonest profit. It’s my understanding that, in Jesus’ day, you could pretty much take this for granted. Tax collectors earned their living by charging people more than they actually owed, and then keeping the difference. Many tax collectors became quite wealthy. I would assume that money changers were probably doing the same thing, and that those temple coins were probably quite expensive. About the guys selling doves and whatnot, I’m less clear, but I would be very surprised if the guys inside the Temple weren’t charging a premium for their animals. > [@](#): > > Should we assume that Jesus _did_ believe that sacrificing at the Temple was the only avenue to forgiveness of sins? Is it unreasonable to believe that his actions were a protest against the insitution itself? Jesus forgave people himself, on his own authority, so maybe we should question whether this action was directed against the operations at the Temple as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-vs-the-money-changers-whats-the-beef/341932/33 "2006-01-29T19:19:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Tax collectors earned their living by charging people more than they actually owed, and then keeping the difference. IIRC, in Jesus’ day taxation rights were farmed out. The government gave the ights to various people, who collected it. I don’t know how said individuals got the rights to tax. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-vs-the-money-changers-whats-the-beef/341932/34 "2006-01-30T15:44:25Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > IIRC, in Jesus’ day taxation rights were farmed out. The government gave the ights to various people, who collected it. I don’t know how said individuals got the rights to tax. The rights to collect taxes in a specific area were generally awarded to the highest bidder. The winning bidder would then collect from the people of that area as much as he possibly could, pay the bid amount to the governing authority and keep the rest. Not the best way to make friends with the common man. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-vs-the-money-changers-whats-the-beef/341932.md?page=1)