# Jesus was a CARPENTER? Cite? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 25, 2024, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156 "2024-12-25T21:18:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2024, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/21 "2024-12-26T03:40:38Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > And although the Iliad and Odyssey are atributed to being written by Homer, Homer himself may not have even been a real person, he may not have even existed. Sure, 400 years before anything written down is a long time. But there is some info- > **[Ancient accounts of Homer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_accounts_of_Homer)** > > Ancient accounts of Homer include numerous passages in which archaic and classical Greek poets and prose authors mention or allude to Homer. In addition, they include the ten biographies of Homer, often referred to as the Lives. > There are no known records directly dating Homer other than his writings of the Odyssey and the Iliad. All accounts are based on tradition. The periodization hinted in written records comes from Herodotus, who maintained that Hesiod and Homer lived no more than 400 yea... ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2024, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/22 "2024-12-26T03:59:47Z")
Imagine the irony if Jesus made crucifixion crosses ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2024, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/23 "2024-12-26T05:15:36Z")
Harvard has an entire department (the department of folklore and mythology) that was created to house the guy who came up with a really solid idea of how the Iliad and the Odyssey were passed down orally before they were written. The Wikipedia article about his work has a decent summary. > **[The Singer of Tales](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Singer_of_Tales)** > > The Singer of Tales is a book by Albert Lord that formulates oral tradition as a theory of literary composition and its applications to Homeric and medieval epic. Lord builds on the research of Milman Parry and their joint work recording Balkan guslar poets. It was published in 1960. > The book is divided into two parts. The first part concentrates on the theory of Oral-Formulaic Composition and its implications for bards who would recite epic poetry and the eventual literary figures who converted... No one who studies these things believes that the Homerian epics were preserved word for word from something composed by a guy named Homer. Rather, they would have been a little different with every retelling. And whether the protagonist was a carpenter or a fisherman or a general laborer is the kind of detail that would change depending on the needs of the story, the teller, and the audience. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2024, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/24 "2024-12-26T08:44:29Z")
Just throwing in that German has different words for carpenters that make furniture as opposed to carpenters that make wooden frames for buildings. In Christian tradition as recounted in German, it’s always the latter word that is associated with Jesus and Joseph, never the former, and this is how it’s taught in RE classes. ---
**Author:** ![Cugel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cugel/32/1199_2.png) [@Cugel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cugel)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2024, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/25 "2024-12-26T09:53:40Z")
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2024, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/26 "2024-12-26T10:17:52Z")
I suppose this is meant as a joke? Our word “architect” is etymologically related to the Greek “tekton” used by the gospels and traditionally translated as “carpenter”. But I don’t think any theological school of thought holds that he was a member of a profession even remotely connected to our modern understanding of architects. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2024, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/27 "2024-12-26T10:32:52Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Imagine the irony if Jesus made crucifixion crosses _The Last Temptation of Christ_ shows him doing exactly that. It’s plausible. The Romans were in charge, crucifixion was a standard means of torture and execution, and they’d have to source the crosses from somewhere. One thing that’s always been true for working class people: you don’t turn down a cushy government contract. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2024, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/28 "2024-12-26T14:41:00Z")
The Iliad and Odyssey were also in verse and possibly set to music, which is a tremendous aid to maintaining an oral tradition. Some of the Old Testament was also in verse, but none of the New. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2024, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/29 "2024-12-26T14:52:04Z")
I was just coming to post exactly this. They are also filled with stock phrases that are frequently repeated. “Wine-dark sea” and “rosy-fingered dawn” come to mind. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2024, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/30 "2024-12-26T15:14:39Z")
To summarize the factual side: two passages in the Gospels have him alluded to by third parties as the _tekton_ or the son of the _tekton_. That the specific kind of building trades work involved is carpentry comes from early church tradition. (Which BTW let’s remember, for more than half of Christianity, is a perfectly cromulent source of holy teaching.) > [@Chronos](#): > > What does the Septuagint have to do with the New Testament? I believe the idea is that the Greek-language Septuagint would have been the main version of Scripture that the authors in the NT, writing in Greek to proselytes in the Hellenistic world, and the early Church Fathers in the Roman world before there was Jerome’s official Latin version (and after that still by the Eastern churches) would have used as a source when referring to Jewish Scripture for use in interpreting and prefiguring alleged prophesies of Christ, so that early interpretations and traditions would be informed/influenced by it. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2024, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/31 "2024-12-26T16:14:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Tradition outside the Gospels that dates back to about 200 ad or so. This doesn’t make much sense. Seeing as they spoke Greek in 3rd century Eastern Mediterranean, they wouldn’t have used “Carpenter” or “laborer” or whatever. They would have used tekton, and seeing as they spoke Greek they would have understood what that meant. It was only later when Greek was no longer spoken that there was a debate about what it meant. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2024, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/32 "2024-12-26T16:37:48Z")
There isn’t any debate about what “tekton” means. There’s a debate about which of its many meanings apply in this context, and which don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2024, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/33 "2024-12-26T16:51:43Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > as an atheist, I’m not _that_ invested in proving the assertion(s). Well, it’s not really all that big a deal. I don’t know of anybody who considers it a key part of Christian dogma, the kind of thing you’d have to believe to consider yourself a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2024, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/34 "2024-12-26T17:09:04Z")
Yeah, I’d say that what’s important about Joseph’s profession (and possibly Jesus’s, early in his life: Nothing odd about a kid working for his father until he finds his own path) is just that he was a blue-collar schmo, not something prestigious like a scholar or a government functionary. ---
**Author:** ![2\_More\_Bits](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/2_more_bits/32/4148_2.png) [@2\_More\_Bits](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2_More_Bits)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2024, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/35 "2024-12-26T17:17:09Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Imagine the irony if Jesus made crucifixion crosses [He WAS a crossmaker!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTAesI73E1U) ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2024, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/36 "2024-12-26T20:55:16Z")
“[Tekton](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tekt%C5%8Dn)” and it’s variants used in the NT really have no precise translation in either English nor to our times. It seems to have been used in the NT to indicate something to do with making. So “maker” would be a sort of translation but that gets mixed up with our modern notion of a “maker”. The common materials to make stuff with back then would have been stone, wood and metals. No context is given to narrow it down to materials, let alone the sort of thing made with those materials. In the OT sometimes a qualifier is given to indicate as to the materials and product produced. And not always wood. Here and there, including the Talmud, the original Hebrew word seems to sometimes have an association with a person who is crafty mentally. Leading some to suggest that Joseph, at least, was considered smart in some way. That is probably pushing it. In short, no detailed answer can be given. That’s true with a ton of stuff regarding the Bible. And since it really should have no effect on ones beliefs don’t sweat it. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2024, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/37 "2024-12-26T21:19:13Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Here and there, including the Talmud, the original Hebrew word Original Hebrew word? AIUI, the gospels were originally written in Koine Greek. There is a tradition that says that the gospel of Matthew was first written in Hebrew before Matthew produced a Greek version of it, but AFAIK this text has never been found, and historians and theologians are not sure it is true. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2024, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/38 "2024-12-26T21:59:45Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > There isn’t any debate about what “tekton” means. There’s a debate about which of its many meanings apply in this context, and which don’t. That’s the debate among people who don’t speak Greek and who speak a language that doesn’t have direct translation for the word. People who still speak the Greek of the new testament, living in a society not too different to the one they describe just wouldn’t have that debate. They know what a tekton is, it’s a tekton ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2024, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/39 "2024-12-26T22:09:03Z")
What I meant is that there are words from Ancient and even Koine Greek whose translations are uncertain or disputed. Tekton isn’t one of them: its meaning is pretty clear. It just has such a broad semantic range that it is arguable how much of its meanings might apply in a given case. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2024, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/40 "2024-12-26T22:14:48Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > No one who studies these things believes that the Homerian epics were preserved word for word from something composed by a guy named Homer. By no means did i claim that. I said “pretty faithfully”. > [@Chronos](#): > > The Iliad and Odyssey were also in verse and possibly set to music, which is a tremendous aid to maintaining an oral tradition. Some of the Old Testament was also in verse, but none of the New. Yes, but ALL of the NT stuff was done during a time of writing. > [@JRDelirious](#): > > That the specific kind of building trades work involved is carpentry comes from early church tradition. And, usage of the term “tekton” in other biblical writings. It was not used for a mason for example. When used alone, it meant someone who worked with wood. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156.md?page=3)