# Jesus was a CARPENTER? Cite? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 25, 2024, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156 "2024-12-25T21:18:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/101 "2024-12-30T14:10:00Z")
> [@Jegpeg](#): > > Most of the very early Christians (e.g the disciples) were Jewish and Hebrew was their mother tongue, No more than Latin is the mother tonight of modern day Italians. They spoke Aramaic, a related language. I’m sure scholars spoke (or at least read) biblical Hebrew, but it wasn’t the language of the common man. > **[Language of the New Testament](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_of_the_New_Testament)** > > The New Testament was written in a form of Koine Greek, which was the common language of the Eastern Mediterranean from the conquests of Alexander the Great (335–323 BC) until the evolution of Byzantine Greek (c. 600). > The New Testament gospels and epistles were only part of a Hellenist Jewish culture in the Roman Empire, where Alexandria had a larger Jewish population than Jerusalem, and more Jews spoke Greek than Hebrew. Other Hellenistic Jewish writings include those of Jason of Cyrene, Josep... And what @md-2000 said. The theological strand of early Christianity that grew into modern-day Christianity was largely created by Paul. The groups that proselytized among the Jews mostly died out, and their remnants were presumably eradicated as heresies after the Council Of Nicea standardized the religion. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/102 "2024-12-30T20:50:43Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Any translation that says that is wrong. I’m looking at the Hebrew in front of me. It is very simple and clear. Maiden or “young unmarried woman” is assumed to be a virgin, at least back then. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/103 "2024-12-30T21:46:38Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > The theological strand of early Christianity that grew into modern-day Christianity was largely created by Paul. > [@md-2000](#): > > St. Paul, after his seizure on the road to Damascus, made up his own religion. What are you basing this on? How would we know what, if any, ideas or parts of Christianity were created or originated by Paul? > **[Paul Did Not 'Invent' Christianity](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/paul-did-not-invent-christianity_b_1020792)** > > How did followers of Jesus move from a religion focused upon Israel's God and God's kingdom to a religion devoted to the person of Jesus? For many, the Apostle Paul fills that gap. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/104 "2024-12-30T22:32:29Z")
never mind ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/105 "2024-12-30T23:27:31Z")
We know that there were two competing early churches, one that was focused on Jews, and the other, in which Paul played a major role, more ecumenical. They argued about things like whether Christians had to keep kosher (Paul says “no”.) Paul’s won. That doesn’t mean he invented Christianity from whole cloth, but he had a lot of influence on where it ended up, as witnessed by the large chunk of the new testament written by him. Here’s what Wikipedia says: > **[Early Christianity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christianity)** > > Early Christianity, otherwise called the Early Church or Paleo-Christianity, describes the historical era of the Christian religion up to the First Council of Nicaea in 325. Christianity spread from the Levant, across the Roman Empire, and beyond. Originally, this progression was closely connected to already established Jewish centers in the Holy Land and the Jewish diaspora throughout the Eastern Mediterranean. The first followers of Christianity were Jews who had converted to the faith, i.e. Je... > As Gentiles joined the young Christian movement, the question of whether they should [convert to Judaism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Judaism) and observe the Torah (such as [food laws](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashrut), [male circumcision](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit_milah), and Sabbath observance) gave rise to various answers. Some Christians demanded full observance of the Torah and required Gentile converts to become Jews. Others, such as Paul, believed that the Torah was no longer binding because of Jesus’ death and resurrection. In the middle were Christians who believed Gentiles should follow some of the Torah but not all of it.[[55]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christianity#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMarcus200688-55) > … > The Council of Jerusalem did not end the dispute, however.[[57]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christianity#cite_note-Cross-Livingstone_2005-Paul-57) There are indications that James still believed the Torah was binding on Jewish Christians. Galatians 2:11-14 describe “people from James” causing Peter and other Jewish Christians in Antioch to break table fellowship with Gentiles.[[78]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christianity#cite_note-78) (_See also_: [Incident at Antioch](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_at_Antioch)). Joel Marcus, professor of Christian origins, suggests that Peter’s position may have lain somewhere between James and Paul, but that he probably leaned more toward James.[[79]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christianity#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMarcus200691%E2%80%9392-79) This is the start of a split between [Jewish Christianity](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christian) and [Gentile (or Pauline) Christianity](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Christianity). While Jewish Christianity would remain important through the next few centuries, it would ultimately be pushed to the margins as Gentile Christianity became dominant. No doubt, there weren’t exactly two factions. But it seems to be a good approximation. And Paul’s faction won. And there’s a ton of stuff in Christianity that doesn’t make sense from a Jewish perspective, and was almost certainly formalized by people who had never been Jews and didn’t have much but way of Jewish background. The most striking is the common Christian claim that a perfect blood sacrifice, being the ability of mere humans to perform, was required for forgiveness of sins. The old testament gives enormous details on all the required sacrifices, and the “sin offering” is explicitly dependant on the wealth of the sinner. A rich man had to sacrifice a nice young bullock, but a poor man could sacrifice a dove, and a really poor man sacrificed some grain. So, very much within the capacity of ordinary men, and no requirement for blood. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/106 "2024-12-30T23:36:04Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > What are you basing this on? How would we know what, if any, ideas or parts of Christianity were created or originated by Paul? Most of the New Testament, and hence most of the writing on which Christian beliefs are based, consists of letters written by Paul. And another book, Acts of the Apostles, largely concerns the disputes between Paul and Peter, and their resolution. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/107 "2024-12-30T23:46:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Maiden or “young unmarried woman” is assumed to be a virgin, at least back then. Regardless, if you look at the sentence structure in the original Hebrew, it does not state, or _even imply_ that the virgin referenced is going to _remain a virgin_ through the experience of becoming pregnant, carrying a child, and giving birth. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/108 "2024-12-30T23:47:31Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And Paul’s faction won. And there’s a ton of stuff in Christianity that doesn’t make sense from a Jewish perspective, and was almost certainly formalized by people who had never been Jews and didn’t have much but way of Jewish background. But Paul _was_ a Jew, so anything that “was almost certainly formalized by people who had never been Jews and didn’t have much but way of Jewish background” probably wouldn’t have come from him. > [@Chronos](#): > > Most of the New Testament, and hence most of the writing on which Christian beliefs are based, consists of letters written by Paul. But this maybe makes it sound like Paul’s letters predated Christianity. Paul’s letters were written to Christian churches. It’s true that Paul’s letters are our source for some Christian beliefs, but that doesn’t mean Paul originated them. (Kind of like how we don’t know how much of what’s in Euclid’s _Elements_ originated with Euclid himself.) ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/109 "2024-12-30T23:48:49Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You do want to be careful with the translations there, too. The word “rape” used to mean “carried off”, not necessarily “forced sex on without consent”. I think most of the original myths were kind of vague on the entire concept of the woman’s consent being relevant. I agree with the second sentence, but can you provide an example of a woman who was carried off either without forced sex, or where consent was freely given? It seems more like the ancient words for “rape” just have a different focus than the modern (the violence of the abduction vs the violence of the resulting sex acts), but are still pretty coterminous in their focus on violence against women with sex as a major part of it. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/110 "2024-12-30T23:55:52Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > can you provide an example of a woman who was carried off either without forced sex, or where consent was freely given? Maybe?? Wikipedia’s article on “raptio” notes: > [@](#): > > It is contested that the legendary event known as “[The Rape of the Sabine Women](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women)”, while ultimately motivated sexually, did not entail sexual violation of the Sabine women on the spot, who were instead abducted, and then implored by the Romans to marry them (as opposed to striking a deal with their fathers or brothers first, as would have been required by law). > **[Raptio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raptio)** > > Raptio (in archaic or literary English rendered as rape) is a Latin term for, among several other meanings for senses of "taking", the large-scale abduction of women: kidnapping for marriage, concubinage or sexual slavery. The equivalent German term is Frauenraub (literally woman robbery). > Bride kidnapping is distinguished from raptio in that the former is the abduction of one woman by one man (and his friends and relatives), whereas the latter is the abduction of many women by groups of men... ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/111 "2024-12-31T00:08:36Z")
I don’t think marrying someone afterward counts as consent, or waiting a while to commit the acts of sexual violence. On the other hand, the notion that a woman should express consent is shockingly modern. I don’t think (to return to the subject of the thread) that God or even Gabriel obtained Mary’s consent, either, or Joseph’s, either. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/112 "2024-12-31T00:08:56Z")
I can’t cite specific sources, but I’m pretty sure I’ve seen versions of the Helen of Troy story where Helen went with Paris willingly, but was still described as “raped”. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/113 "2024-12-31T13:00:42Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Regardless, if you look at the sentence structure in the original Hebrew, it does not state, or _even imply_ that the virgin referenced is going to _remain a virgin_ through the experience of becoming pregnant, carrying a child, and giving birth. The whole virgin birth come from the mistranslation of Isaiah in the Septuagint is [well known](https://bam.sites.uiowa.edu/articles/septuagint-prophecy-virgin-birth). > [@](#): > > But many scholars point out that the entire story of the virgin birth may have been the result of the Septuagint’s mistranslation of a single word in Isaiah 7. Regardless of whether that is true, we can say for certain that the _citation_ of the Isaiah 7 prophecy in Matthew 1:23 is the result of the Septuagint’s peculiar translation of Isaiah 7:14. I first ran into this almost 30 years ago in, IIRC, Elaine Pagels’ book _The Origin of Satan_. As I remember it, the theory is that the authors of Matthew and Luke looked through the Septuagint for signs to convince other Jews that Jesus was the promised messiah. Back to the article I linked to above: > [@](#): > > Matthew 1:22–23 appeals specifically to a prophecy from Isaiah 7 to portray Jesus as a fulfillment of prophecy. However, because both Matthew and Luke tell stories of the divinely facilitated impregnation of Jesus’s mother, Mary, it is evident that both relied on the Septuagint’s version of Isaiah 7 and not on the original Hebrew version. This is because both authors not only describe Mary as the “young woman” Mary (as in the Hebrew version), but also use a word that specifically describes a woman who has not yet had sex (as in the Greek version) and who therefore must have been miraculously impregnated by God, making the birth of Jesus all the more auspicious. However, the tradition of the virgin birth is the result of not only a questionable translation on the part of the Septuagint, but also the recycling of an expired prophecy that initially involved another king of the Jews: Hezekiah. It’s interesting that the whole deal about the virginity was from a mistranslation. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/114 "2024-12-31T13:17:46Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > And Paul’s faction won. And there’s a ton of stuff in Christianity that doesn’t make sense from a Jewish perspective, and was almost certainly formalized by people who had never been Jews and didn’t have much but way of Jewish background. > > But Paul _was_ a Jew, so anything that “was almost certainly formalized by people who had never been Jews and didn’t have much but way of Jewish background” probably wouldn’t have come from him. Sorry, i knew he was born a Roman citizen, and didn’t realize he was also a Jew. A lot of very anti-Jewish and non-Jewish stuff in Christianity _does_ come from Paul, though. He’s certainly the authority for “you don’t need to follow the law God gave the Jews.” ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/115 "2024-12-31T16:43:18Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Which begs the question (to me at least) does Aramaic have exact translations of tekon or carpenter.? In the link I gave, the page includes a discussion of the Hebrew word “kharash” that is translated into tektōn in the Septuagint and such. Sometimes (but not always) a suffix is added to indicate the material the work with. Both Hebrew and Aramaic have a word that might mean “craftsman” in some sense: naggar and naggara, resp. The former appears in the Talmud. The later is likely to be the word locals used in describing Joseph’s line of work. The gospel writers would then have translated that into Greek. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/116 "2024-12-31T17:29:53Z")
I guess the other question is, how big was Nazareth? What sort of work would a fullt-time craftsman do, and was the town big enough to support that? I suppose we’re back to stuff that’s really hard to pin down, like how much wood furniture would the average working class Nazarean have and how often is it replaced? What was Jewish society of the time like - were there the equivalent of Squires and Knights and other lesser nobles in the Nazareth area to be richer clients for woodwork? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/117 "2024-12-31T17:56:38Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > …Nazareth… > …Nazarean… There are some that question if those (and Nazarene and Nazirite) are even referring to the same thing. > **[Nazareth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth)** > > Nazareth\[a\] is the largest city in the Northern District of Israel. In 2022 its population was 78,007. Known as "the Arab capital of Israel", Nazareth serves as a cultural, political, religious, economic and commercial center for the Arab citizens of Israel. The inhabitants are predominantly Arab citizens of Israel, of whom 69% are Muslim and 31% Christian. The city also commands immense religious significance, deriving from its status as the hometown of Jesus, the central fi Findings unearthe... > **[Nazarene (sect)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazarene_(sect))** > > The Nazarenes (or Nazoreans; Greek: Ναζωραῖοι, romanized: Nazorēoi) were an early Jewish Christian sect in first-century Judaism. The first use of the term is found in the Acts of the Apostles (Acts 24, Acts 24:5) of the New Testament, where Paul the Apostle is accused of being a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes ("πρωτοστάτην τε τῆς τῶν Ναζωραίων αἱρέσεως") before the Roman procurator Antonius Felix at Caesarea Maritima by Tertullus. At that time, the term simply designated follo As ti... > **[Nazirite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazirite)** > > In the Hebrew Bible, a nazirite or a nazarite (Hebrew: נָזִיר Nāzīr) is an Israelite (i.e. Jewish) man or woman who voluntarily took a vow which is described in Numbers 6:1–21. This vow required the nazirite to: > After following these requirements for a designated time period (which would be specified in the individual's vow), the nazirite would offer a specific animal sacrifice; along with it, the nazirite's hair was to be shorn and burned. > The nazirite is described as being "holy" and "holy un... ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/118 "2024-12-31T19:34:19Z")
“Rape” is used ambiguously in a song in this 1960 musical: [The Fantasticks - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fantasticks#Controversy) ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/119 "2024-12-31T19:51:58Z")
I believe the actual discussion was over the right to “bare arms,” but the stenographer was unaware of the distinction ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156/120 "2024-12-31T21:20:36Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > The whole virgin birth come from the mistranslation of Isaiah in the Septuagint is [well known](https://bam.sites.uiowa.edu/articles/septuagint-prophecy-virgin-birth). And debatable. Yes the term could be better translated as “maiden” or 'young unmarried woman" but back then, both were considered to virgins. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-was-a-carpenter-cite/1012156.md?page=7)