Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist, what did that do?

I suspect the gospel writers couldn’t hide the potentially embarrassing fact that Jesus had been baptized by John. It was too well-known and John’s followers were still around to remind people of it. They thus came up with the stuff about John acknowledging the superiority of Jesus (highly unlikely. Zealots like John are not known for their willingness to take second place.)

It’s quite possible that Jesus and his disciples were a splinter group which broke away from John and set up shop independently. But that’s just speculation.

Do any of the Gospels ever say that Jesus was “without sin”, or is that church tradition?

None of the gospels say so, at least explicitly. But they generally refrain from explicit theological judgments about Jesus, so not much can be inferred from the fact that they don’t express this one.

But the claim is made regularly elsewhere in the New Testament. Heb 4:15 describes Jesus as “in every respect . . . tested as we are, yet without sin.”, and later on in the same text (Heb 7:26) as “holy, blameless, undefiled, separated from sinners”. 1 Peter 2:22 affirms that “he committed no sin”; 1 Jn 3:5 that “in him there is no sin”. 2 Cor 5:21 says that he “knew no sin”

It’s a fairly mainstream opinion among the scholars that Jesus started out as a follower of John but in time established a independent ministry, and that the Jesus movement emerged from the John movement. But, if terms like “splinter group” and “broke away” suggest an acrimonious parting of the ways, that’s speculative; there’s no evidence to suggest acrimony.

As for John being a zealot, and not being willing to take second place, again, I don’t think there’s much evidence for this. We know John was executed by Herod. Mark say that this was because he had the displeasure first of Herod’s wife and then of his daughter. Josephus, who is probably the more reliable, suggests it was simply because John was popular and Herod was paranoid. Neither account suggests that John was claiming a position of leadership, either religious or civil.

On the other hand, we do have him driving out merchants from the temple, which seems fairly sinful (more or less so depending on which gospel you go with). He also doesn’t stone the adulterous woman, despite in theory being the only one available to fulfil his criteria to do so.

That does raise the question of what you consider to be sinful, though. But Christians who believe that Jesus was without sin most likely also believe that the clearing of the moneylenders from the Temple, and the refusal to stone the women taken in adultery, were not sinful (as in, they wouldn’t have been sinful if you or I had done them).

To the extent that Jesus is expected to follow the same rules as us, sure, no doubt.

In the NIV version of Luke 23:43 it reads "43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

I guess one might interpret that differently as you suggest, but I think the straightforward interpretation would be the most reasonable. That being, Jesus was literally saying that the criminal would indeed be with Jesus in paradise.

This was when Jesus grew wings and could fly

But the interpretation I’ve offered is a straightforward answer to the question being asked by the criminal, while the one you’ve suggested is not. “Yes.” is a much more straightforward answer than “I don’t need to answer directly, because you’re also going to be there with me.” On those grounds, the interpretation I’ve suggested is the most reasonable.

While I was thinking about this, a question did occur to me, though; why is Jesus, with the sins of the world upon him, going to paradise that day?

Someone decided to point out this thread to his brother, and suggest he post something. So here goes. :slight_smile: (Sorry it’s rather long, but I find this topic fascinating!) I don’t mean to cut of the existing conversations, but I do want to give my take on the original poster’s questions.

I think that important aspects of the theological meaning of Jesus’ baptism come to light through some historical context. In this we find that John’s baptism was not only religious but inseparably political as well, and that in the political meaning we find something of the religious and theological meaning as well. Much of what follow is based on the writings of leading New Testament scholar N. T. Wright.

Jesus has no intention of starting a new religion. But, like John the Baptist, Jesus led a renewal movement within Judaism, and his acceptance of baptism by John shows that he had agreed with John’s message and program. So then what was John up to?

John the Baptist’s decision to conduct baptisms at the Jordan River, first of all, evoked the Old Testament story of Joshua’s crossing of the Jordan, as he had led the Hebrews into Palestine, the “Promised Land”, bringing to completion the journey that had begun in the Exodus (Joshua 3–4). As the story goes, the Jordan was kept from flowing so that the people could cross the Jordan on dry ground. This in turn echoed the dramatic parting of the Red Sea (or Sea of Reeds) in the Exodus story, when the Israelites crossed through the sea on dry ground to escape Pharaoh’s army (Exodus 14). John’s baptism — going down into the Jordan back up again — was almost certainly meant to be symbolic of a New Exodus.

This bring us to Isaiah 40:3, “In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.” This verse is closely connected by the Gospels with John’s ministry (Matthew 3:3; Mark 1:3; Luke 3:4–6; John 1:23). It comes at the beginning of a key section in the book of Isaiah, chapters 40–55, where the return Exile is announced in terms of a New Exodus. Notice, for example, how the way in the wilderness evokes the Israelites’ journey through the wilderness during the Exodus, or how new promises that water will be provided in the desert (Isaiah 41:17–18) echo the same in the Exodus story (e.g. Exodus 17:1–7). The way made through the sea in the Exodus is compared to the new way of return from Exile in the wilderness (Isaiah 43:16–21).

Now, ancient Jews believed that the Babylonian Exile had come about because Israel had sinned and breached its covenant with their God. This had resulted in the enactment of the curses of the covenant (akin to punitive stipulations in a contract) — see especially in Deuteronomy 28–30 — including famine, pestilence, other disasters, the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple, and the Exile. And as several scholars of ancient Judaism have argued, many Jews in Jesus’ day believed that their nation was still suffering under the curses of the Exile, and so they were awaiting a liberation from this condition along the lines of the New Exodus found in the book of Isaiah. (Daniel 9:24–27 extends Israel’s “exilic status” from 70 to 7 x 70 years!) While many Jews were living again in their homeland and no longer in physical exile, they were still under foreign domination and had not returned to being the righteous and prosperous nation that they expected they would become after the exilic curses were lifted.

If John was proclaiming the long-awaited New Exodus connected with Isaiah 40:3, what then do we find in the preceding verse, Isaiah 40:2? It speaks of God’s forgiveness of Israel’s sins, that is, that nation’s sins that had led to the Exile and the covenant curses. So here we discover another dimension to the “forgiveness of sins” connected with John’s baptism. Wright emphasizes that in first-century Judaism, the phrase “forgiveness of sins” would was not simply about an individual’s sins, but would have been heard primarily in reference to Israel’s sins as a nation. John was effectively proclaiming that those Jews who repented and underwent his baptism were forming the renewed people of Israel, free from the exilic curses at last. In John’s view, Jews could not depend on their ancestry alone to be included in the true Israel, but needed to “bear fruit worthy of repentance” (Matthew 3:7–10 = Luke 3:7–9). Through John’s baptism, the true Israel was being formed that would escape the coming divine judgement.

John’s “forgiveness of sins” has another angle. In Jesus’ day, if Jews wanted their sins forgiven, the official and established way was to bring a sacrifice or offering to the Temple in Jerusalem. By offering a means of receiving forgiveness of sins freely through baptism, John was implicitly criticizing the official Temple system in some way. This need not have been based on a criticism of the idea of animal sacrifice per se, but was more likely a criticism of the corruption of those who were running the Temple system. These were predominantly the Sadducees, who supported Roman rule and were in turn kept in power by the Romans. Roman rule was not only oppressive in itself, but the ruling elites among the Sadducees benefited from economic exploitation of the poor through debt enslavement and other means. John apparently had been critical of the Romans’ appointed ruler in Galilee and Perea, Herod Antipas (Mark 6:18). And any prophet gathering a group of followers in the wilderness would have been seen as a potential threat to those in power. And so, just as the Exodus had involved liberation from the oppressive slavery of the ancient Egyptian state, it seems that the New Exodus would involve God’s judgment of and faithful Israel’s liberation from the oppression of the Romans and their collaborators.

One thing that Jesus’ baptism by John “did”, then, is formally show that Jesus was including himself in the renewed Israel based around John’s movement. And it shows that Jesus had aligned himself with John’s message. The extent to which Jesus might then have come to adopt views that differed from John’s is a matter of great debate among Jesus scholars. But many have held that Jesus, too, led a similar renewal movement within Judaism. But whereas John’s disciples fasted, Jesus and his followers did not (or at least not as often) — Mark 2:18–22. Jesus, rather, ate and drank with “sinners” and “outcasts”, not simply preaching the need for repentance to them but meeting them where they were at and inviting them into God’s kingdom. And if Matthew 5:13–16 and parallel passages are any guide, Jesus was preaching not simply the need to repent in the face of the coming judgment, but was drawing on that strand of the Old Testament hope in which Israel was to be a holy people, set apart to be an example of a people living in faithfulness to God, the salt and light of the world, and thereby be a blessing to all nations (cf. Genesis 12:3).

One of the theological implications of all this, I think, is that it reminds us of the importance for Christianity of our lived reality in this world. This is why the role of Israel, a concrete people, is important in the theology of the New Testament. Jesus’ mission was not simply spiritual, but had what we would call political and economic dimensions as part of its theological significance.

Interesting question. Are you implying that the sins would still be “on Jesus” after he died? That would seem to involve some metaphysical assumptions that could be questioned. Or are you thinking of the idea of Jesus’ descent into hell?

I’m no expert in Christian theology, so if I have all this backwards, I wouldn’t be surprised. But my understanding is that dying in a sinful state leads to something not good for us; whether that’s a literal lake of fire with pointy-speared demons to torture us, or a purgatory where we have a chance to reflect on our conduct in life, or some other situation which is not where you go for being “worthy” of heaven. Again, however that’s described and by what differing measures one’s found worthy.

Presumably, Jesus, with the sins of the world upon him, would be going to “serve the sentence” for those sins, whatever that would be. Not going to paradise that very day. If he is, that suggests that the entirety of the sins of the world at that point aren’t something that would keep you out of heaven for an entire evening.

Right. Well for one thing, the early Christian belief in Jesus descent into “hell” after his death was not about him going to a place of punishment or torment. It was rather about his descent to Sheol, the abode of the dead — both the righteous and unrighteous — to either proclaim the gospel to them (in some traditons) or to liberate the righteous from there (in other traditions).

And I may be mistaken, but I think substitutionary models of atonement in Christian theology focus on Jesus’ death itself as sufficient punishment. Since Jesus is God, the thinking goes, his death has an “infinite value” that can make up for the “infinite offense” of sin againt God. Many theologians understand hell as separation from God, and such separation is suggested by Jesus’ cry on the cross in Matthew and Mark, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34; Matthew 27:46). There have been other ways of understanding the significance of Jesus’ death in Christian history, though.

Another thing to keep in mind is that many scholars today argue that Luke does not present any explicit theology of Jesus’ death as an atonment for the forgiveness of sins. They may see Luke’s understanding of Jesus’ death in terms of fulfillment of scripture, or the vindication of a righteous sufferer, or the death of an innocent martyr.

But Jesus doesn’t die a “normal” death. He rises, or at least does so in every version of Christian theology I’ve heard of. He’s dead for three days, which certainly suggests that there’s some non-infinite number involved in the equation here.

Invoking the separation of Jesus from God is a problem, here, too, since this line of thought relies on Jesus-as-God dying.

That’s interesting. I was under the impression that the whole atonement for the sins of the world thing was a generally accepted tenet. There’s more issues with these interpretations, but I’m glad to learn I’m wrong on this point.

The thief says “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” His response is “Yes. Today you will be with me in paradise.”

Some versions translate that “Yes” to “Truly I tell you” or “Verily I say unto thee.” But it’s just the word Amen, which can be translated as “Yes” or “Let it be so.” Jesus often starts his sentences with Amen.

So, yes, Jesus will remember him. And he will let him into paradise, because he remembers him. What other reason would there be for Jesus to remember this guy who is currently dying? He’s asking that Jesus would remember him and do something for him.

So Jesus is saying “Yes, I will remember you, and I will let you into heaven today.” Because the guy revealed he believed in him and his kingdom.

However, there are many who think that the only exception to being baptized is if there is not possible to do so. I remember being told of sick people being baptized in their bath tub when I went to the Baptist club in college.

What reason is there for me to remember my relatives or friends who die? Or the deaths of those killed unjustly?

There’s no particular reason to believe that over just being asked to be remembered. Especially since the literal question asked is, will he remember him?

Actually, even accepting your interpretation for the sake of argument, Jesus doesn’t say why the criminal will be going to heaven. He does reveal he believed in him and his kingdom, but he also rebukes his fellow (who it’s said is “hurling insults” or “railing” at Jesus, but isn’t), declares himself to be punished justly, and has had a life during which he may very well have done something that has earned his way into heaven. Jesus doesn’t go into the reasons why; “because the guy revealed he believed in him and his kingdom” is an assumption not supported by the text here.

Yes, I can see how that seems a bit odd. But a finite number times infinity is infinity. And “after three days” was used as a turn of phrase to mean “in a short time,” so its use to characterize the interim between Jesus’ death and resurrection would seem to emphasize the brevity of the period. A portion of early Christian preaching preserved in Acts 13:35-37 also asserts that Jesus’ body did not experience any corruption/decay. Then there is the tradition of Jesus’ descent into “hell”, as I’ve mentioned, which is really more about Jesus’ power even in death. So it really seems to have been Jesus’ crucifixion that was emphasized as the really bad part, not his being dead afterwards.

Or, for certain Protestants who don’t subscribe to the idea of Jesus’ descent into the underworld after his death, some believe that souls “sleep” in an unconscious state until they are raised from the dead. So for them, Jesus would not have experienced anything during the three days of being dead. The only problem might be that he would be “defeated” during this time, which could be important in an honor-shame culture, but early Christian preaching emphasizes that this situation was quickly reversed (or that Jesus was victorious even while on the cross).

If I’m not mistaken, I believe I recall this being understood for certain Christian theologians as a separation within the godhead of the Trinity, between the Father and Spirit and the Son, in terms of their inter-personal relationality being suspended but not in terms of any ontological change where Jesus would stop being part of the Trinity.

One thing to keep in mind it that the Gospels are literary creations, not blow-by-blow transcriptions of exactly what people said. In fact, the story is at odds with the earlier account in Mark 15:32, where it says, “Those who were crucified with him also taunted him.” So if Luke is telling us this episode, he has probably made sure to provide his reader with sufficient information to get his main point. What Luke says is (1) that the two are “criminals” or “evildoers”, and (2) that repentant criminal says, “And we indeed have been condemned justly, for we are getting what we deserve for our deeds” (23:41). So it makes more sense to me to understand the criminal’s repentance as what prompts Jesus’ statement that he will be with him in paradise.