# Jesus' Wine and Hrothgar's Mead **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 23, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-wine-and-hrothgars-mead/500763 "2009-06-23T21:17:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-wine-and-hrothgars-mead/500763/21 "2009-06-24T00:23:17Z")
The earliest of Jesus’s miracles in the Gospel of John is his turning water into wine at the wedding feast at Cana. The gospel tells us: > [@](#): > > . . .the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.” In other words, he’s saying, “Usually people break out the good wines first, and then when everyone is too hammered to notice, they bring out the crappy cheap stuff.” ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-wine-and-hrothgars-mead/500763/22 "2009-06-24T00:28:26Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Why would you necessarily guess sweeter? Is the assumption that they drank it much earlier (before the yeast had a chance to completely ferment all the sugar out)? If it was sweeter, then it’s probably safe to assume the alcohol content was lower, as well. The Romans did apparently preferred sweeter wines than is common today, but part of that was done by adding sweeteners, like honey or lead, or by reducing must and adding it to the wine. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-wine-and-hrothgars-mead/500763/23 "2009-06-24T00:44:02Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > It takes a lot more work to produce wine than to produce grape juice. How’s that pre-industrial refrigeration working for you? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-wine-and-hrothgars-mead/500763/24 "2009-06-24T02:12:59Z")
Prior to pasteurization, all beverages (except water) were fermented. It was impossible to prevent it. In New England in the 1830s, everyone drank hard cider. Water was pretty iffy back then. Also, they differentiated between fermented beverages (created by God, since they didn’t know about yeast) and distilled beverages (created by man). ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-wine-and-hrothgars-mead/500763/25 "2009-06-24T02:18:38Z")
> [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](#): > > I have no actual data for this, but I can well imagine that today’s grapes have been breed and are raise to have more sugar in them. I know that there are yeasts out there that have been breed to a higher alcohol tolerance. But even with those 2 things, my WAG would be that the difference is on the scale of old 10% alcohol vs modern 14% alcohol. (Not real data, just my guess on ranges.) Past tense of “breed” (rhymes with “need”) is “bred” (rhymes with “bed”). ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-wine-and-hrothgars-mead/500763/26 "2009-06-24T02:45:28Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > There are many references in scriptures in new and old testament about getting drunk, including Lot’s 2 daughters who got their father so drunk they were able to impregnate themselves by him without him knowing. **Prayer for the Patriarch with Teenaged Daughters (Gen. 19)** O Lord, Who didst in Thy infinite mercy contrive to save Thy servant Lot not from destruction only, but also from his wife; grant that like unto Lot I may drink wine until I am drunken, and be no longer responsible for my actions, and that my teenage daughters may come in unto me, and it won’t be my fault, and lie with me, one at a time, without my having hardly any idea what’s happening, or better still, lie with me both together, O Lord! Amen. From _Not The Bible_, © 1983 by Tony Hendra and Sean Kelly. I believe this falls under Fair Use for the purposes of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-wine-and-hrothgars-mead/500763/27 "2009-06-24T02:48:21Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Past tense of “breed” (rhymes with “need”) is “bred” (rhymes with “bed”). As long as we’re nitpicking, so is the past participle. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-wine-and-hrothgars-mead/500763/28 "2009-06-24T03:42:13Z")
My father made hos own wine, and it was STRONG. I’m certain it was well above 10%. As noted, the Greeks diluted their wine. They even had special mixing bowls for this purpose with their own characteristic shape and name. Only barbarians drank undiluted wine. In the **Odyssey** the skinfull of wine that Odysseus brings to what turns out to be the Cyclops’ cave is said to be incredibly concentrated – you were supposed to mix a cupfull of the wine to a jug of water. Which helps explain why the Cyclops, despite being huge, gets dead-drunk so easily. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-wine-and-hrothgars-mead/500763/29 "2009-06-24T03:54:05Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The Romans did apparently preferred sweeter wines than is common today, but part of that was done by adding sweeteners, like honey or lead, or by reducing must and adding it to the wine. Mmm… lead… like those sweet things that peel off the walls! ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-wine-and-hrothgars-mead/500763/30 "2009-06-24T04:14:10Z")
Pure Roman wine was a luxury item in ancient Rome, where _vinum_ from the region of Falernia was considered a delicacy. Judging from Horace’s comment _quis puer ocius restinguet ardentis Falerni pocula praetereunte lympha?_ - “what slave-boy will put out (my) cup of blazing Falernian with passing water” (Carm II.11), even sophisticated Roman palates preferred to dilute their wine. Amoung the lower classes [Posca](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posca)–a diluted mixture of sour wine and herbs–was quite popular and served as a standard “grog” for soldiers throughout Roman history. There was also [Lora](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3D%2326990), a poor-man’s wine made from leftover grape skins. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-wine-and-hrothgars-mead/500763/31 "2009-06-24T04:39:02Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > Mmm… lead… like those sweet things that peel off the walls! Speaking of which, I never realized there was an ancient lead-based sweetener until somebody mentioned “lead sugar” a while back and I looked it up on [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_sugar) and was quite fascinated at the result. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-wine-and-hrothgars-mead/500763/32 "2009-06-24T12:12:46Z")
In Luke 7 Jesus says: “For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.”’” (Luke 7:33-34) We see this again in Mathew 11. (King James says “wine-bibber” instead of drunkard). It seems clear to me that there was alcohol in the wine. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-wine-and-hrothgars-mead/500763/33 "2009-06-24T12:21:02Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > **Prayer for the Patriarch with Teenaged Daughters (Gen. 19)** > > O Lord, Who didst in Thy infinite mercy contrive to save Thy servant Lot not from destruction only, but also from his wife; grant that like unto Lot I may drink wine until I am drunken, and be no longer responsible for my actions, and that my teenage daughters may come in unto me, and it won’t be my fault, and lie with me, one at a time, without my having hardly any idea what’s happening, or better still, lie with me both together, O Lord! Amen. > > From _Not The Bible_, © 1983 by Tony Hendra and Sean Kelly. I believe this falls under Fair Use for the purposes of this thread. Yikes! That is really creepy especially since Tony Hendra’s daughter has alleged that he sexually abused her. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-wine-and-hrothgars-mead/500763/34 "2009-06-24T15:59:24Z")
Perhaps he’d drunk too much wine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-wine-and-hrothgars-mead/500763.md?page=1)