# Jet Blue, outsourcing airplane repairs a problem? El Salvador in the mix too. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2005, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jet-blue-outsourcing-airplane-repairs-a-problem-el-salvador-in-the-mix-too/324367 "2005-10-01T19:59:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jet-blue-outsourcing-airplane-repairs-a-problem-el-salvador-in-the-mix-too/324367/1 "2005-10-01T19:59:55Z")
Recently, by chance, I managed to catch the amazing landing of the Jet blue plane with the locked front landing gear making a landing. I was happy that everyone got out ok. But, recently a report came out that confirmed once again my theory that El Salvador somehow always appears in the background of major news: [http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=10360](http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=10360) > [@](#): > > Amid the horrific images that flashed across our TV screens during the past month, there was one last week that stood out because it was so unexpectedly reassuring: that of a supremely competent pilot steering a JetBlue airliner with jammed front wheels to a safe landing at Los Angeles International Airport. > > Since last week’s landing, though, we’ve learned a couple of other things that aren’t quite so comforting – for instance, that this was at least the seventh time that the front wheels on an Airbus A-320 have gotten locked in the wrong position. > > More surprising still was the news about JetBlue’s long-term maintenance of its aircraft. When the planes are inspected for damage and then reassembled, the work takes place either in Canada or El Salvador. > > El Salvador? > > When JetBlue first took to the air in 2000, rather than hire its own long-term maintenance department, the company subcontracted that work to Air Canada and the Central America-based TACA. It’s certainly cheaper: According to a Wall Street Journal story last January, the Salvadoran mechanics make $300 to $1,000 a month – far less than their U.S.-based counterparts. Roughly one-third of the Salvadoran mechanics have passed the exam that qualifies them for the Federal Aviation Administration’s license, while in the United States, such licenses are required for all mechanics employed directly by the airlines. > > But such licensed, in-house mechanics are increasingly the exception at U.S. airlines. About half of the long-term maintenance on the planes of U.S. carriers is outsourced, and much of that work takes place overseas, where FAA inspections are a sometime thing. Indeed, the point of this story isn’t that JetBlue’s decisions are in any way exceptional. To the contrary, by going abroad for work that would previously have been performed at home (and except for maintenance, JetBlue doesn’t fly outside the United States), and by prioritizing costs over more closely inspected maintenance, the airline is an exemplar of 21st-century capitalism. Of course the FAA and congress can monitor those repairs made overseas, no? [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/20/AR2005082000979.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/20/AR2005082000979.html) > [@](#): > > Congress mandated that the Transportation Security Administration develop security protocols and procedures for maintenance workers and facilities overseas by August 2004, but the agency still has not issued any plans. A TSA spokesman said the agency plans to file a public notice of its proposed rules soon. > > “In a post-9/11 environment, the in-house guys undergo tremendous surveillance and criminal background checks, and they are subject to screening in secure areas of an airport,” said Lawrence I. Willis, general counsel for the transportation trades department of the AFL-CIO. “It’s clearly not the case for third-party repair stations.” > > The Department of Transportation’s Office of Inspector General has found that the Federal Aviation Administration has also been slow to keep up with the changing industry. The FAA’s workforce of safety inspectors continue to be focused mostly on maintenance at airlines’ in-house hangars rather than contractors in the United States and overseas, according to a status report sent last month to Rep. James L. Oberstar (D-Minn.), who asked the office to conduct an audit of the FAA’s inspection program. More than a discussion, I want to know what are the current laws or policies regarding the training and experience of repair crews overseas, any progress in congress? Do you think what airlines are doing, regarding quality and safety, is enough? It is really a good idea to make repairs overseas? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jet-blue-outsourcing-airplane-repairs-a-problem-el-salvador-in-the-mix-too/324367/2 "2005-10-01T21:18:25Z")
It’s not like these countries don’t have their own airlines- and they’re planes arn’t falling out of the sky on a daily basis. As long as they arn’t hiring the guys who fix planes for Air Cubana, I’m happy to have cheaper tickets. ---
**Author:** ![Martha\_Medea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/43a26b/32.png) [@Martha\_Medea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martha_Medea)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jet-blue-outsourcing-airplane-repairs-a-problem-el-salvador-in-the-mix-too/324367/3 "2005-10-01T23:09:33Z")
Yes, TACA. I remember it well. Known amongst old Central America hacks like myself as ‘Take a Coffin Along’. Honduran airline SAHSA was fondly rendered as ‘Stay At Home, Stay Alive’. I had the chilling experience of sitting aboard a TACA (or was it COPA?) flight on a stopover at San Salvador airport en route to Managua, while they loaded the coffins of the victims of the air disaster, several days previously, when a plane had crashed into the San Vicente volcano. The colleague I was travelling with should have been on that flight, but changed connections on a whim. His travel companions warned him that it was bad luck to change… that’s the last he ever saw of them. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2005, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jet-blue-outsourcing-airplane-repairs-a-problem-el-salvador-in-the-mix-too/324367/4 "2005-10-02T00:01:27Z")
I think that to be fair, we should look at a comprehensive analysis of the safety record of the planes being worked on by El Salvadorian mechanics. Furthermore, we should assess how many of these safety issues are due to mechanical issues or completely separate ones such as controlled flight into terrain in which **Martha’s** colleague’s colleague’s perished. As it seems to happen, the basic design of the aircraft is at fault. Nose wheel locking at ninety degrees incidents have occurred on the A-320 _eleven times_ and I tend to think that this is Airbus’s fault rather than JetBlue’s or whomever they contract out mechanical work to. Also, I’m not entirely clear on how the article is attempting to use the term, “long-term maintenance,” but I understand that it really only refers to reconstruction after damage or refitting engines, etc. rather than basic or everyday maintenance. So, the plane will head to El Salvador _now_, but as it stands we don’t know if an El Salvadorian mechanic has yet to lay hands on the landing gear of this plane, let alone that it was his fault in causing the accident, nor that an American mechanic would have a lower incidence rate of performing the same mistakes or negligence to cause the aircraft nose to lock up. Right now, it seems more like a gut reaction of hearing, “El Salvador? That place sucks. Let’s blame the accident on them!” ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2005, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jet-blue-outsourcing-airplane-repairs-a-problem-el-salvador-in-the-mix-too/324367/5 "2005-10-02T00:24:12Z")
Actually, the current incarnations of TACA and COPA are quite fine competent airlines equipment and labor-wise – at least in their international routes. When you hear horror stories about airline safety elsewhere in the world it’s often in relation to the _domestic_ carriers and routes, which tend to be served by back-bencher crews on older aircraft, often on high-cycle schedules, to airports often short on NavAids, in dodgy terrain and treacherous weather.(Thus, when flying to C-A myself, I’ll seek to do a one-stop, Home to Panama City to Destination, to avoid finding myself on the air equivalent of the #2 train.) It’s not as if Airbus’s specs and tech manuals are different in San Salvador vs. in Toulouse or in Miami. They may not have all passed the FAA exam but it’s not like they’re hiring illiterate _peones_ off of Juan Valdez’s plantation either. I have a suspicion that what Jet Blue pays them for the servicing may look cheap to us, but to _them_ it’s a big payday and one they want to keep coming. Still, the valid concern in the report is about not being able to maintain the preferred degree of control and oversight, specially IRT the staff screening. Also it’s taking something of a gamble on local stability – you bet your sweet beepee they would NOT have outsourced to El Salvador 15 years ago even if they promised a staff where even the janitor were a Ph.D. in aerodynamics… ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2005, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jet-blue-outsourcing-airplane-repairs-a-problem-el-salvador-in-the-mix-too/324367/6 "2005-10-02T03:05:39Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > Right now, it seems more like a gut reaction of hearing, “El Salvador? That place sucks. Let’s blame the accident on them!” I do think, at least in the maintenance of planes, that they don’t suck, the major complain IMO is that companies should have gone the overseas route only after establishing independent safety and oversight of the maintenance of planes, that are supposed to fly mostly in the domestic USA skies. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2005, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jet-blue-outsourcing-airplane-repairs-a-problem-el-salvador-in-the-mix-too/324367/7 "2005-10-02T15:41:39Z")
[More background.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/20/AR2005082000979.html). > [@](#): > > Fifty-three percent of all major maintenance on U.S. airlines is done by contractors rather than airline employees…JetBlue Airways and America West Airlines have their planes serviced in El Salvador. Northwest and Continental Airlines use repair stations in Hong Kong and Singapore. Delta Air Lines’ planes will soon be serviced by a division of Air Canada. Many other carriers send maintenance work to third parties in the United States, many located in the South, where labor rates are lower. However, > [@](#): > > The FAA’s workforce of safety inspectors continue to be focused mostly on maintenance at airlines’ in-house hangars rather than contractors in the United States and overseas, according to a status report sent last month to Rep. James L. Oberstar (D-Minn.), who asked the office to conduct an audit of the FAA’s inspection program. > > “FAA initially planned to implement all of our recommendations by August 2005,” stated the inspector general’s letter to Oberstar. “However, progress has been slow: FAA has completed only one of nine promised actions.” > > The FAA said that its progress has been hampered by laws and regulations overseas that are far different from those in the United States, such as those pertaining to routine drug tests. The agency plans to work out a bilateral agreement with the safety agency in Europe to ensure that countries on both sides of the Atlantic can ensure safe inspections of each other’s maintenance facilities. > > “Clearly, we need to refine our oversight of repair stations – specifically as they become more popular,” said Greg Martin, an FAA spokesman. “The inspector general’s concern is perhaps maybe those actions aren’t as quick as they should be, but we are moving forward with due speed.” In theory at least, repair stations outside the US are subject to the same requirements as domestic ones for approval to work on US-registered aircraft. In practice, there are, well, variations, but it would seem that they’re more a result of cost-cutting and training than nationality. The A320 (the JetBlue aircraft) does have a significant history of problems with its French-made nose gear, which may be unrelated to maintenance at all. ---
**Author:** ![fortytwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f9ae1b/32.png) [@fortytwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fortytwo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jet-blue-outsourcing-airplane-repairs-a-problem-el-salvador-in-the-mix-too/324367/8 "2005-10-02T17:38:55Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > .However,In theory at least, repair stations outside the US are subject to the same requirements as domestic ones for approval to work on US-registered aircraft. In practice, there are, well, variations, but it would seem that they’re more a result of cost-cutting and training than nationality. The airline I worked for in London was an authorised FAA repair station. The requirements you mentioned were kept both in theory and in practice. We were regularly inspected by the FAA to ensure this. There were no"variations". ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2005, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jet-blue-outsourcing-airplane-repairs-a-problem-el-salvador-in-the-mix-too/324367/9 "2005-10-02T18:32:36Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s not as if Airbus’s specs and tech manuals are different in San Salvador vs. in Toulouse or in Miami. They may not have all passed the FAA exam but it’s not like they’re hiring illiterate peones off of Juan Valdez’s plantation either. I’m no illiterate _peone_, yet there’s no way that I’m competent enough to service an A320, with or without a manual. What’s the point in requiring FAA licensing if it can be circumvented by sending the planes down to Central America for their servicing? If it’s a requirement that planes being serviced within the United States are only to be maintained by licensed mechanics, then the same should be true outside of the United States also. Either get rid of the licensing altogether, or apply the standard uniformly. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jet-blue-outsourcing-airplane-repairs-a-problem-el-salvador-in-the-mix-too/324367/10 "2005-10-03T00:42:04Z")
> [@Dominic Mulligan](#): > > If it’s a requirement that planes being serviced within the United States are only to be maintained by licensed mechanics, then the same should be true outside of the United States also. Either get rid of the licensing altogether, or apply the standard uniformly. What is the point of any of our labor regulations and licensing? Right now, I can’t buy a pair of shoes made in the US by an indentured servant, but I could buy some made through indentured servitude in Thailand. Applying our labor standards worldwide would be next to impossible. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2005, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jet-blue-outsourcing-airplane-repairs-a-problem-el-salvador-in-the-mix-too/324367/11 "2005-10-03T01:36:15Z")
[QUOTE=Dominic Mulligan] I’m no illiterate _peone_, yet there’s no way that I’m competent enough to service an A320, with or without a manual. [/quote[ (The singular is _peón_.) And around the world every year a few thousand 18-year-olds fresh off the farm go from knowing diddly about avionics to being competent to service F16s within a few months. A well-trained Salvadoran or Panamanian technician, having completed the requisite manufacturer-approved courses, given the proper tools and materials, should do just as good a job as the guys currently striking Northwest. I would worry whether indeed s/he _does_ get equivalent conditions IRT tools, materials, working environment, hours, etc., but that would affect an FAA licensed mechanic too… > [@](#): > > What’s the point in requiring FAA licensing if it can be circumvented by sending the planes down to Central America for their servicing? _What JetBlue and others are “circumventing” is **NOT** American government regulation, it’s American market **COSTS** _. In any case it’s \*\*not \*\* that the FAA requires that to _fly_ in US airspace the plane must have been serviced by FAA licensees (otherwise how could any foreign airline fly to the USA?), it requires FAA licenses for the people who want to fix airplanes in the USA. The FAA _ **HAS** _ blackballed airlines from flying into the USA for inadequate standards (e.g. all airlines based in the Dominican Republic, at one time in the 1990s), it’s not as if overhauling the plane offshore is a _carte blance_ and the FAA can’t touch you. > [@](#): > > If it’s a requirement that planes being serviced within the United States are only to be maintained by licensed mechanics, then the same should be true outside of the United States also. Either get rid of the licensing altogether, or apply the standard uniformly. It’s not as if the Salvadoran Civil Aviation Ministry does not license mechanics. The question is if they pass the same standard as the FAA’s – and from what has been quoted of the article, it seems our guys are more concerned about the other countries matching us on such things as pre-employment screenings and post-employment drug tests, besides actual technical skills competence. And don’t forget, in order to authorize servicing of other carriers’ Airbuses at the TACA shop, Airbus Industrie itself would have to give a go-ahead, so there’s that oversight too. As long as sovereign nations are around, (a) Any repair facility INSIDE the USA = everyone must pass the FAA test; (b) Any repair facility outside the USA = we must enter negotiations with THEM to persuade them to adopt the equivalent of our regulations. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jet-blue-outsourcing-airplane-repairs-a-problem-el-salvador-in-the-mix-too/324367/12 "2005-10-03T16:55:51Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > What is the point of any of our labor regulations and licensing? Right now, I can’t buy a pair of shoes made in the US by an indentured servant, but I could buy some made through indentured servitude in Thailand. Applying our labor standards worldwide would be next to impossible. Please. There’s a profound difference between a flying bomb filled carrying hundreds of people with tonnes of aviation fuel onboard being serviced by a potential incompetent and you buying a pair of shoes from Thailand. > [@](#): > > (The singular is peón.) And around the world every year a few thousand 18-year-olds fresh off the farm go from knowing diddly about avionics to being competent to service F16s within a few months. A well-trained Salvadoran or Panamanian technician, having completed the requisite manufacturer-approved courses, given the proper tools and materials, should do just as good a job as the guys currently striking Northwest. I would worry whether indeed s/he does get equivalent conditions IRT tools, materials, working environment, hours, etc., but that would affect an FAA licensed mechanic too… The difference being those fresh-from-the-farm teenagers and a mechanic in El Salvador is that they have a guaranteed level of competence before they’re even allowed near a plane, and are regularly tested to confirm that they are in fact competent. Now, the article doesn’t mention whether the mechanics working on planes are licensed to El Salvadoran standards. If they are, then I retract my claims, but I had inferred that the mechanics were not licensed in any way. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jet-blue-outsourcing-airplane-repairs-a-problem-el-salvador-in-the-mix-too/324367/13 "2005-10-04T01:16:19Z")
From the site sponsored of the [Transport Workers Union](http://www.twu.org/political/hotissues/airlines.html), who I get the feeling would not be big fans of outsourcing: > [@TWU](#): > > Aeroman was founded in 1983 and started performing third-party work in the mid-1990s. It has about 1,200 workers. Mechanics come from local technical colleges and the military, submit to lie-detector, drug and alcohol tests, and spend five to six months doing classroom work, then an equal amount of time as apprentices. > > The individual mechanics have licenses from the Salvadoran aviation authority. They aren’t required to have an FAA license, but Aeroman pays for airfare and hotels for employees who choose to go to Miami to take the FAA exam, which is given only in English. They get a raise if they pass, and Aeroman says 30% to 40% of its technicians have these licenses. > > The Aeroman hangar was inspected 12 times last year by the FAA’s Miami office, four times in 2003 and twice in 2002, the FAA says. Mr. Ballough says the facility also is scrutinized by other FAA inspectors assigned to JetBlue, the airline’s own quality-assurance people, and the local aviation authority. Of course, some of these reports are based on self-reporting so like hell I’d take it as Gospel, but still it seems a fact that there IS Salvadoran licensing and a manufacturer-approved apprenticeship, the question becoming whether the standards are fully equivalent. The biggest concern, not only in the union’s article but in **GIGObuster** ’s second quoted article is about retention and turnover (i.e. accumulated experience and reliability record) when price-shopping to ANY “outside contracting” shop, in or out of the USA; in fact the most serious incidents described in that article involved 3rd-party contractors IN the USA: > [@Washington Post](#): > > In January 2003, a US Airways Express flight operated by Air Midwest crashed shortly after takeoff from Charlotte, killing all 21 aboard, partly because an inexperienced mechanic at a third-party maintenance contractor performed improper work on the aircraft. In March, the Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency arrested 27 illegal immigrants who were working at one of the country’s largest contract aircraft maintenance facilities, in Greensboro, N.C. None of the immigrants, from Central and South America, Sudan and the Philippines, had terrorist ties, but the incident raised questions about the hiring standards of contractors.