# Jewish Belief and Conversion- Questions on SDSTAFF CKDextHavn's article **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [April 18, 2006, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-belief-and-conversion-questions-on-sdstaff-ckdexthavns-article/353121 "2006-04-18T03:49:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-belief-and-conversion-questions-on-sdstaff-ckdexthavns-article/353121/21 "2006-04-18T16:57:19Z")
> [@Acqua Minerale](#): > > Say I found out my mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother was Jewish, but had converted and all the woman were then raised in another faith. > > Under Jewish law would I be a Jewish? Yes, you would be Jewish. > [@](#): > > Also, how did the mothers of Jacob’s sons’ children become Jewish? They were Jewish, right? Did they have to convert? I assume they had to otherwise the children of the 12 tribes would be members of the tribes (through the father) but not Jews (through the mother). As I mentioned earlier, the laws before the Revelation at Sinai were different than they are now. That’s why Amram was allowed to marry his aunt, an act which was prohibited in the Torah. It could be that at the time no formal “conversion” was necessary as it was after Sinai. Another possibility is that anyone from Terach’s family were considered “quasi-Jews” during the Patriarchial period. Note that Abraham didn’t ask his servant to find a wife for Isaac who was Jewish… but rather from his own family. Likewise with Isaac’s instructions to Jacob. With regard to Jacob’s sons, there are two possible answers. The first is that their wives converted before marriage. The second one relies on a Midrash which states that each of the tribes was born together with a twin sister. (Dinah was the only daughter mentioned only because of the later event with her and Shechem. Had that not happened, she might not have been mentioned at all). The Midrash goes on to state that each of Jacob’s sons married a sister from a brother of another mother (Jacob’s twelve sons came from four different wives). Marrying a paternal half-sister was permitted pre-Sinai. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-belief-and-conversion-questions-on-sdstaff-ckdexthavns-article/353121/22 "2006-04-18T17:14:04Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > With regard to Jacob’s sons, there are two possible answers. The first is that their wives converted before marriage. The second one relies on a Midrash which states that each of the tribes was born together with a twin sister. (Dinah was the only daughter mentioned only because of the later event with her and Shechem. Had that not happened, she might not have been mentioned at all). The Midrash goes on to state that each of Jacob’s sons married a sister from a brother of another mother (Jacob’s twelve sons came from four different wives). Marrying a paternal half-sister was permitted pre-Sinai. For a more secular answer to that question, I’d reccomend the work of Dr. Shaye Cohen, who, along with a lot of other scholars, argues that the principal of matrilineal descent didn’t exist in Judaism until sometime in the Second Temple period. If you accept that, then the above Midrash is a post-facto rationalization by the writers of the midrash, who assumed that existing laws of descent existed in the past. And how does Joseph fit in? We know from Genesis, he didn’t marry his sister, but instead the daughter of an Egyptian priest. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-belief-and-conversion-questions-on-sdstaff-ckdexthavns-article/353121/23 "2006-04-18T17:31:06Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > And how does Joseph fit in? We know from Genesis, he didn’t marry his sister, but instead the daughter of an Egyptian priest. Again, the Midrash attempts to explain this as well and again, there are two possible answers offered: one is that Asenath converted and the other is that she was the daughter of Shechem and Dinah. Truthfully, of these, the second answer doesn’t sit very well with me, since it then involves a whole backstory of how she got to Egypt to begin with. My personal preference is the first or even the idea that pre-Sinai, no formal “conversion” was needed. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Acqua\_Minerale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f6c823/32.png) [@Acqua\_Minerale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acqua_Minerale)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-belief-and-conversion-questions-on-sdstaff-ckdexthavns-article/353121/24 "2006-04-18T17:56:46Z")
I don’t want to start a debate about Jews for Jesus (a group I don’t even like), but I am a little confused. You say the founder Moishe Rosen is not Jewish. But I thought there was no argument that his maternal grandmother was Jewish. (If Rosen is lying about his family history this is moot.) So it would seem that he has to be Jewish even if the he is preaching for fellow Jews to violate parts of the 613 mitzvot and blurring the lines between Christianty and Judaism. He (and the group) might be giving false teaching but how does that effect whether he is a Jew? For example, Jesus really blurred the lines with his teaching and his teachings but I don’t think there is any question that Jesus is a Jew, right? From the rest of the thread I have the impression that once you are Jewish there is nothing you can do to no longer be Jewish, so I am little confused as why you would say that Rosen is not Jewish despite the nature of his teachings. But maybe there is something I am overlooking. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-belief-and-conversion-questions-on-sdstaff-ckdexthavns-article/353121/25 "2006-04-18T18:05:35Z")
> [@Acqua Minerale](#): > > I don’t want to start a debate about Jews for Jesus (a group I don’t even like), but I am a little confused. > > You say the founder Moishe Rosen is not Jewish. But I thought there was no argument that his maternal grandmother was Jewish. (If Rosen is lying about his family history this is moot.) It doesn’t. I wasn’t aware that his maternal grandmother was Jewish. If so, then he is Jewish. That doesn’t, however, detract from the deceitfulness of the group. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-belief-and-conversion-questions-on-sdstaff-ckdexthavns-article/353121/26 "2006-04-18T20:46:59Z")
> [@Zahava424](#): > > Yes, there is a commandment to believe in G-d, but it’s just one of the 613 commandments. Does this imply that Jews place no special importance on the Ten Commandments? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-belief-and-conversion-questions-on-sdstaff-ckdexthavns-article/353121/27 "2006-04-18T21:39:11Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > > [@Acqua Minerale](#): > > > > Say I found out my mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother was Jewish, but had converted and all the woman were then raised in another faith. > > > > Under Jewish law would I be a Jewish? > > Yes, you would be Jewish. zev, you know that this is nutty. Even by this standard: > [@](#): > > 1. There are only three groups of people to whom Jewish identity matter: Jews, the person in question, and those who hate Jews. We’ve already discussed the first two groups. The last group, however, generally also takes the “once a Jew…” approach as well. History has shown us that when people try to escape their Jewish identity, it is often those that hate Jews who will bring them back. A perfect example of this was in Nazi Germany. The Nazis didn’t care if a Jew converted to Christianity. Even if his parents converted to Christianity before his birth, he was labeled for extermination. I am personally aware of the effects of this last group in a variety of ways, so I am extremely sympathetic to this argument. But while the Nazi race laws were themselves as nutty as Hitler’s nightmares, even they did not go as far as you’re going. It is uncomfortably similar to the one drop of blood test that racists used to apply to blacks. It’s also scientifically iffy. Many geneticists agree that it can be proven that every single one of us alive today is descended from any given individual far enough in the past. And that “far enough” isn’t all that far. [The Royal We](http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200205/olson) > [@](#): > > The mathematical study of genealogy indicates that everyone in the world is descended from Nefertiti and Confucius, and everyone of European ancestry is descended from Muhammad and Charlemagne The same genetic math will show conclusively that everyone in the world today must be descended from a Jewish woman. Ergo, we are all Jewish. Ergo, you must treat everyone as Jewish. But this is truly nutty, nutty beyond even your statement. There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Now I’m a nutty absolutist. I contend that Judaism is a religion. If you abandon it you are no longer Jewish. There is no such thing as a Jewish atheist; all there can be are non-practicing Jews. There most certainly cannot be Jewish Christians or Jewish Hindus. Dex is flat out wrong in his contention, in my view. Most people, I’m sure, fall somewhere between our extremes. I think, naturally, that my extreme has a sounder rationale behind it than yours, but I realize it’s a minority view. But you perhaps need to review your extreme and decide just how many Jewish mothers are needed to screw in that proverbial light bulb. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-belief-and-conversion-questions-on-sdstaff-ckdexthavns-article/353121/28 "2006-04-18T21:43:44Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > I am personally aware of the effects of this last group in a variety of ways, so I am extremely sympathetic to this argument. But while the Nazi race laws were themselves as nutty as Hitler’s nightmares, even they did not go as far as you’re going. Agreed - the Nazis only cared as far as your grandparents went. I didn’t mean to draw an exact analogy - just to further emphasize the point that those who seek to escape their Jewish identity are often dragged back to it - sometimes by the very people who don’t care that you’ve renounced your Jewish identity to begin with. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-belief-and-conversion-questions-on-sdstaff-ckdexthavns-article/353121/29 "2006-04-19T00:40:36Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > A Christian atheist is not possible, speaking generally. .) Hmm, well, it is possible. From the point of view of the Roman Catholic Church, once a catholic, always a catholic too. I might be an atheist, but in the eyes of the church I’m just an erring catholic. Granted, it doesn’t make much of a diffeence for me, but the Jewish view doesn’t make much of a difference for a Jew converted to catholicism, either. So, you can easily be an atheist catholic Jew. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-belief-and-conversion-questions-on-sdstaff-ckdexthavns-article/353121/30 "2006-04-19T00:55:20Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > The same genetic math will show conclusively that everyone in the world today must be descended from a Jewish woman.Ergo, we are all Jewish. Ergo, you must treat everyone as Jewish. No. It’s not enough to be descended from a Jewish woman. You must descend from her in female line. It would reduce significantly the number of applicants. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-belief-and-conversion-questions-on-sdstaff-ckdexthavns-article/353121/31 "2006-04-19T03:04:50Z")
> [@](#): > > No. It’s not enough to be descended from a Jewish woman. You must descend from her in female line. It would reduce significantly the number of applicants. Correct. And as it happens, there are some special genetic tools available to trace the female line. Using those tools, it’s been determined that humanity’s last common ancestor in the exclusively female line would have been [150,000 years ago](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve). Since Judaism is less than 150,000 years old, this implies that not all humans are decended from a Jewish woman. The same sort of genetic testing could probably determine what proportion of humans alive today are, in fact, Jewish by descent, but I’m not aware that such a study has been done. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-belief-and-conversion-questions-on-sdstaff-ckdexthavns-article/353121/32 "2006-04-19T03:11:35Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > There is no such thing as a Jewish atheist; Hi. I’m a Jewish atheist. I am the daughter of two Jewish survivors. I am a Jew culturally and spiritually. I believe in the ethical core that is specific to Judiasm. I believe the Jewish culture (eastern European, spicifcally) is my culture- the food, the music, the traditions. When I go to synagogue I derive extreme pleasure from almost meditative feeling I get from the various prayers. I love doing rituals that have been going on for hundreds of years. I believe there is value in ritual and prayer in of itself, even if I don’t believe anyone is listening. It is my community in so many ways taht go beyond a belief in G-D. Judiasm is a culture in addition to a religion unlike othe religions (ever see a catholic cookbook?). My parents had more in common culturally with Brittish and Greek Jews than the Polish Christians in their hometown. Reconstructionist Jusdiasm addresses the spiritual and ethical nature of Judiasm. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-belief-and-conversion-questions-on-sdstaff-ckdexthavns-article/353121/33 "2006-04-20T02:13:44Z")
> [@KRM](#): > > > [@Zahava424](#): > > > > Yes, there is a commandment to believe in G-d, but it’s just one of the 613 commandments. > > Does this imply that Jews place no special importance on the Ten Commandments? Anybody? ---
**Author:** ![Acqua\_Minerale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f6c823/32.png) [@Acqua\_Minerale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acqua_Minerale)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-belief-and-conversion-questions-on-sdstaff-ckdexthavns-article/353121/34 "2006-04-20T02:27:24Z")
> [@KRM](#): > > Anybody? [http://www.jewfaq.org/10.htm](http://www.jewfaq.org/10.htm) > [@](#): > > According to Jewish tradition, G-d gave the Jewish people 613 mitzvot (commandments). All 613 of those mitzvot are equally sacred, equally binding and equally the word of G-d. All of these mitzvot are treated as equally important, because human beings, with our limited understanding of the universe, have no way of knowing which mitzvot are more important in the eyes of G-d. Pirkei Avot, a book of the Mishnah, teaches “Be as meticulous in performing a ‘minor’ mitzvah as you are with a ‘major’ one, because you don’t know what kind of reward you’ll get for various mitzvot.” It also says, “Run after the most ‘minor’ mitzvah as you would after the most ‘important’ and flee from transgression, because doing one mitzvah draws you into doing another, and doing one transgression draws you into doing another, and because the reward for a mitzvah is a mitzvah and the punishment for a transgression is a transgression.” In other words, every mitzvah is important, because even the most seemingly trivial mitzvot draw you into a pattern of leading your life in accordance with G-d’s wishes, rather than in accordance with your own. > > But what about the so-called “Ten Commandments,” the words recorded in Exodus 20, the words that G-d Himself wrote on the two stone tablets that Moses brought down from Mount Sinai (Ex. 31:18), which Moses smashed upon seeing the idolatry of the golden calf (Ex. 32:19)? In the Torah, these words are never referred to as the Ten Commandments. In the Torah, they are called Aseret ha-D’vareem (Ex. 34:28, Deut. 4:13 and Deut. 10:4). In rabbinical texts, they are referred to as Aseret ha-Dibrot. The words d’vareem and dibrot come from the Hebrew root Dalet-Bet-Resh, meaning word, speak or thing; thus, the phrase is accurately translated as the Ten Sayings, the Ten Statements, the Ten Declarations, the Ten Words or even the Ten Things, but not as the Ten Commandments, which would be Aseret ha-Mitzvot. > > The Aseret ha-Dibrot are not individual mitzvot; rather, they are categories or classifications of mitzvot. Each of the 613 mitzvot can be subsumed under one of these ten categories, some in more obvious ways than others. For example, the mitzvah not to work on shabbat rather obviously falls within the category of remembering the sabbath day and keeping it holy. The mitzvah to fast on Yom Kippur fits into that category somewhat less obviously: all holidays are in some sense a sabbath, and the category encompasses any mitzvah related to sacred time. The mitzvah not to stand aside while a person’s life is in danger fits somewhat obviously into the category against murder. It is not particularly obvious, however, that the mitzvah not to embarass a person fits within the category against murder: it causes the blood to drain from your face thereby shedding blood. > List of the Aseret ha-Dibrot > > According to Judaism, the Aseret ha-Dibrot identify the following ten categories of mitzvot. Other religions divide this passage differently. See The “Ten Commandments” Controversy below. Please remember that these are categories of the 613 mitzvot, which according to Jewish tradition are binding only upon Jews. The only mitzvot binding upon gentiles are the seven Noahic commandments. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-belief-and-conversion-questions-on-sdstaff-ckdexthavns-article/353121/35 "2006-04-20T12:21:22Z")
> [@Acqua Minerale](#): > > [http://www.jewfaq.org/10.htm](http://www.jewfaq.org/10.htm) Thanks for the link. My Jewish ignorance has really been fought today. I found the article on kosher sex to be particularly fascinating. > [@](#): > > Sex is the woman’s right, not the man’s. A man has a duty to give his wife sex regularly and to ensure that sex is pleasurable for her. He is also obligated to watch for signs that his wife wants sex, and to offer it to her without her asking for it. The woman’s right to sexual intercourse is referred to as onah, and it is one of a wife’s three basic rights (the others are food and clothing), which a husband may not reduce. The Talmud specifies both the quantity and quality of sex that a man must give his wife. It specifies the frequency of sexual obligation based on the husband’s occupation, although this obligation can be modified in the ketubah (marriage contract). A man may not take a vow to abstain from sex for an extended period of time, and may not take a journey for an extended period of time, because that would deprive his wife of sexual relations. In addition, a husband’s consistent refusal to engage in sexual relations is grounds for compelling a man to divorce his wife, even if the couple has already fulfilled the halakhic obligation to procreate. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-belief-and-conversion-questions-on-sdstaff-ckdexthavns-article/353121/36 "2006-04-20T16:41:18Z")
Here’s another Jewish atheist checking in to show solidarity. Couldn’tve said it better myself, **IvoryTowerDenizen**. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-belief-and-conversion-questions-on-sdstaff-ckdexthavns-article/353121/37 "2006-04-20T16:43:29Z")
> [@Acqua Minerale](#): > > Can one follow this mitzvot Mitzvot is plural; mitzvah is the singular. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-belief-and-conversion-questions-on-sdstaff-ckdexthavns-article/353121/38 "2006-04-20T16:48:04Z")
> [@fetus](#): > > Here’s another Jewish atheist checking in to show solidarity. Couldn’tve said it better myself, **IvoryTowerDenizen**. Thank you. It all makes perfect sense to me! ;j ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-belief-and-conversion-questions-on-sdstaff-ckdexthavns-article/353121/39 "2006-04-20T20:26:41Z")
Jewish panthiest here. ;j I think that the nature of Judaism - as a religious, cultural and ethnic identity - is pretty confusing to non-Jews. Even to Jews. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-belief-and-conversion-questions-on-sdstaff-ckdexthavns-article/353121/40 "2006-04-20T23:21:43Z")
> [@](#): > > The mathematical study of genealogy indicates that everyone in the world is descended from Nefertiti and Confucius, and everyone of European ancestry is descended from Muhammad and Charlemagne There’s a laughably fallacious assumption in that argument. Line of descent != individual person. Even more so with tribal cultures that make a point of marrying within the tribe. However, Exapno Mapcase, I tend to agree with your point on unknown Jewish mothers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-belief-and-conversion-questions-on-sdstaff-ckdexthavns-article/353121.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-belief-and-conversion-questions-on-sdstaff-ckdexthavns-article/353121.md?page=3)