# Jewish/christian questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2009, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-christian-questions/502966 "2009-07-14T11:27:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-christian-questions/502966/1 "2009-07-14T11:27:50Z")
my knowledge in this area is pretty weak, but I’ve done some reading in some of these threads lately that got me thinking about a few things. apologies in advance if these have already been answered, but I confess I didn’t read all of those threads in detail. 1. Even with the arrival of Jesus, isn’t the Jewish God and the Christian God the same God? (I know Jesus is part of the holy trinity, so jews will probably say no, but let’s assume for a moment that we can separate Jesus from that. The pre-Jesus God would have to be the same as the post-Jesus God regardless of whether or not you believe that Jesus was the son of God, correct? 2. Do Jews believe in a Christ-like arrival, and are waiting for their messiah to be born? 3. If the answer to 2 is yes, then what does this individual have to do to prove he is the messiah? Are there certain, defined attributes of the messiah? Some jews obviously thought Jesus was this person and followed him, others did not. I’m assuming there is some criteria established. 4. if indeed this person is believed to be the messiah by the Jews, do they stay Jews or automatically lose their jewish standing as they believe the Jews who believed that Christ was the Messiah lost their jewishness (sorry, cant think of a better way to put this) to those that don’t believe this person to be the real Messiah (you have to figure that some still wouldn’t believe, those doubting thomases!) 5. Did Christ consider himself a Jew during his lifetime? Did his followers? 6. Is the holy trinity part of christianity itself, or is something like this described in the OT? 7. Is the Messiah supposed to be named Jesus Christ, or does that just happen to be the name chosen to describe Jesus when he was born? Thanks for your patience, and hope these questions don’t offend. They are not meant to. ---
**Author:** ![Yodalicious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yodalicious/32/8195_2.png) [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-christian-questions/502966/2 "2009-07-14T12:13:40Z")
I’ll answer to the best of my ability. 1. Yes, the god of the Jews and the Christians is the same god. it should be noted that Muslims believe in this god as well. The simplest (but not the only) difference are that Jews and Muslims do not believe that Jesus is his son. 2. Yes, Jews, at least more conservative and Orthodox, are still waiting for the arrival of the messiah. 3. Not sure. 4. Not sure. 5. Yes, Christ was a Jew. His followers still followed Jewish law and custom for about 100 years of so after his death. 6. I believe the holy trinity was something that evolved in Christian belief over it’s first 300 years or so. There were many different sects of Christianity, at the beginning, eventually the most populace sect won the debates and the holy trinity became canon. Maybe someone here will go into depth on the Council of Nicea. 7. The messiah can have any name. I know these answers are very simple, but someone with much more knowledge than me will be along shortly. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-christian-questions/502966/3 "2009-07-14T12:17:37Z")
The Jewish messiah isn’t divine. He will be a man who accomplishes the tasks set out in the Torah. We’ll only be able to identify him by the fact that he completes all those tasks. I’ll let others more knowledgeable list the things the messiah has to do. ---
**Author:** ![Aelita\_Daystar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@Aelita\_Daystar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aelita_Daystar)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-christian-questions/502966/4 "2009-07-14T12:20:15Z")
1. That really depends. If you’re talking about mainstream Christianity, then yes, they are the same god. If you’re talking about Gnostics, Cathars, Bogomils, or Marcionites (and possibly even Paul of Tarsus) then no they are not the same god. 2. Many Jews are waiting for a Messiah to be born, some believe particular Rabbis are the Messiah. 3. I don’t know the answer to that one. 4. There’s no reason why someone would cease to be Jewish because they believe someone is the Messiah. As I said, there are Jews that believe in living Messiah. 5. Jesus undoubtedly considered himself a Jew. All of his followers before his crucifixion were Jewish as far as we know. 6. The Trinity is not described in the OT. I’m not even sure if they ever mention the Holy Spirit in the OT. Not all Christians believe in the Trinity. 7. I don’t think the Messiah is supposed to have a particular name. There is a prophecy about an Immanuel (I think that’s the name) that is used by many Christians as evidence that Jesus is the Messiah. Edit: Sorry if I’m a bit vague, I’m kinda answering off the top of my head. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-christian-questions/502966/5 "2009-07-14T12:22:14Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > my knowledge in this area is pretty weak, but I’ve done some reading in some of these threads lately that got me thinking about a few things. > > apologies in advance if these have already been answered, but I confess I didn’t read all of those threads in detail. > > 1. Even with the arrival of Jesus, isn’t the Jewish God and the Christian God the same God? (I know Jesus is part of the holy trinity, so jews will probably say no, but let’s assume for a moment that we can separate Jesus from that. The pre-Jesus God would have to be the same as the post-Jesus God regardless of whether or not you believe that Jesus was the son of God, correct? Most Jews would agree that it’s the same God; however, most Jews would also agree that more specific Christian theology and worship is incompatible with Judaism. > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > 1. Do Jews believe in a Christ-like arrival, and are waiting for their messiah to be born? Jews believe in the arrival of a Messiah, although the importance of this belief changes from Jew to Jew (it’s hardly the cornerstone of the faith it is with Christianity). The Jewish Messiah is a different beast than the Christian one - a mortal man, albeit an exceptional one, who will defeat Israel’s enemies, restore the Temple and bring world peace. Less of a personal savior and more of a warrior kind; more Paul Atreidis than Christ. > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > 1. If the answer to 2 is yes, then what does this individual have to do to prove he is the messiah? Are there certain, defined attributes of the messiah? Some jews obviously thought Jesus was this person and followed him, others did not. I’m assuming there is some criteria established. He has to defeat Israel’s enemies, restore the Temple and bring world peace. Once he does that, the Jews will consider accepting him as Messiah. > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > 1. if indeed this person is believed to be the messiah by the Jews, do they stay Jews or automatically lose their jewish standing as they believe the Jews who believed that Christ was the Messiah lost their jewishness (sorry, cant think of a better way to put this) to those that don’t believe this person to be the real Messiah (you have to figure that some still wouldn’t believe, those doubting thomases!) If he really is the Messiah there won’t be any doubt as to the matter. Again, world peace. > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > 1. Did Christ consider himself a Jew during his lifetime? Did his followers? Yes and yes. > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > 1. Is the holy trinity part of christianity itself, or is something like this described in the OT? Pure Christianity. > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > 1. Is the Messiah supposed to be named Jesus Christ, or does that just happen to be the name chosen to describe Jesus when he was born? Jesus is Greek for “Joshua”, and Christ is Greek for “crucified.” So yeah, it’s just the one guy’s name. > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > Thanks for your patience, and hope these questions don’t offend. They are not meant to. No problem! ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-christian-questions/502966/6 "2009-07-14T12:24:19Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > 1. If the answer to 2 is yes, then what does this individual have to do to prove he is the messiah? Are there certain, defined attributes of the messiah? Some jews obviously thought Jesus was this person and followed him, others did not. I’m assuming there is some criteria established. > **[The Son of God, and Judaism](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=499140)** > > I know that Judaism didn’t and doesn’t recognize the historical Jesus as the Messiah. Do modern Jews still expect a Messiah, and do they expect that Messiah to be the Son of God? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-christian-questions/502966/7 "2009-07-14T13:15:53Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Jesus is Greek for “Joshua”, and Christ is Greek for “crucified.” So yeah, it’s just the one guy’s name. Quick correction…“Christ” translates to “anointed,” not “crucified.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-christian-questions/502966/8 "2009-07-14T13:19:50Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Jesus is Greek for “Joshua”, and Christ is Greek for “crucified.” So yeah, it’s just the one guy’s name. _Kristos_ means “anointed”, not "crucified. It’s essentially the Greek word for Messiah. It’s an honorific, not part of his name. He would have been called Jesus, son of Joseph (in Aramaic, of course). ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-christian-questions/502966/9 "2009-07-14T13:26:48Z")
1 He is the same God, but it is the relationship which is changed. In Judaism YHWH is a God far away, one that most people don’t know how to pronounce or understand, he is the ‘I am’ a concept that we can hardly understand , to reach such a high God one goes though a special person, a priest. Jesus is the personal relationship between God and man, we know His name, we get to use the very name of God, He is no longer the incomprehensible ‘i am’, but now the fully understandable ‘I am He’. 6 The trinity is a term that does not appear in scriptures but defines a concept defined in scriptures and there are hints of it in the OT, though much of it is veiled and must be looked at in the light of the NT. If it is part of Christianity, it is a part that IMHO does not have to be understood fully to get salvation, and one does not have to even know the term ‘trinity’ exists. What is needed is recognition of God in the Son of God and accepting Him as Lord. 7 Christ and messiah mean anointed one, Jesus Christ, or sometimes Christ Jesus is Jesus the anointed one. Jesus comes from ‘YHWH saves’. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-christian-questions/502966/10 "2009-07-14T14:00:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > He would have been called Jesus, son of Joseph (in Aramaic, of course). One Aramaic version is _Yesu bar Youseph_. “Bar” of course is Aramaic for “son of.” “Christ-like arrival” is pretty vague. The general Jewish outlook (warning: 2 Jews, 3 traditions) is that some person will accomplish the traditional tasks (which I believe are post-Torah), whereupon they will be anointed as the Redeemer. Accomplishments first, pot of oil second. ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-christian-questions/502966/11 "2009-07-14T14:03:58Z")
Found this list of qualities that the Messianic age (to be ushered in by the Messiah) would have: > [@](#): > > When the messiah does come, he will inaugurate the messianic age (sometimes called the Olam Ha-Ba, World to Come). The Tanakh employs the following descriptions about this period: > > Peace among all nations (Isaiah 2:4; Micah 4:3) > Perfect harmony and abundance in nature (Isaiah 11:6-9) (but some interpret this as an allegory for peace and prosperity) > All Jews return from exile to Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5) > Universal acceptance of the Jewish God and Jewish religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; 66:23; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9) > No sin or evil; all Israel will obey the commandments (Zephaniah 3:13; Ezekiel 37:24) > Reinstatement of the Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-27) [From here](http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism/beliefs/messiah.htm) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-christian-questions/502966/12 "2009-07-14T14:39:59Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Judaism YHWH is a God far away, False. > [@kanicbird](#): > > one that most people don’t know how to pronounce or understand, False. > [@kanicbird](#): > > , to reach such a high God one goes though a special person, a priest. Mega super ultra false. I don’t mind when you cut loose and let your imagination run wild with your personal cosmology, but you can’t just invent this sort of silliness about someone else’s religion and except them to be quiet about it. > [@kanicbird](#): > > The trinity is a term that does not appear in scriptures but defines a concept defined in scriptures and there are hints of it in the OT, though much of it is veiled and must be looked at in the light of the NT. In other words, no such thing exists, it isn’t “veiled” and only when a completely different book says completely different things can you go about inventing meanings. There are no more ‘hints’ of Christian theology in the Tanakh than there are ‘hints’ of Hinduism in the Christian BIble. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-christian-questions/502966/13 "2009-07-14T14:47:10Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > False. > > False. > > Mega super ultra false. You beat me to it. 😃 There are no “priests” (in the sense of religious functionaries with a special relationship to the diety) in Judaism since the fall of the Temple, 2000 years ago or so. Rabbis are not “priests” and have no such relationship. In contrast some versions of Christianity have “priests” in this sense, such as Catholicism. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-christian-questions/502966/14 "2009-07-14T16:06:04Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > There are no “priests” (in the sense of religious functionaries with a special relationship to the diety) in Judaism since the fall of the Temple, 2000 years ago or so. Well, priests are still around. They just don’t do anything special that other Jews don’t do, other than not go to funerals or marry divorcees. That’s one of the things about having a hereditary priesthood…it still has members even after it has lost its existential purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-christian-questions/502966/15 "2009-07-14T16:15:48Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, priests are still around. They just don’t do anything special that other Jews don’t do, other than not go to funerals or marry divorcees. That’s one of the things about having a hereditary priesthood…it still has members even after it has lost its existential purpose. Well, yes, Kohens still exist and still do that Vulcan hand gesture thing. 😃 They are not of course “priests” in the sense that a Roman Catholic priest is a “priest”. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-christian-questions/502966/16 "2009-07-14T16:24:58Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Well, yes, Kohens still exist and still do that Vulcan hand gesture thing. 😃 They must suck at Rock, Paper, Scissors, Spock, Lizzard: too predictable. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-christian-questions/502966/17 "2009-07-16T03:34:43Z")
thanks everyone for your answers so far. Very enlightening. I’m still fascinated by this quote: **Alessan** : > [@](#): > > He has to defeat Israel’s enemies, restore the Temple and bring world peace. Once he does that, the Jews will consider accepting him as Messiah. He does all this, he gets my vote! Who’s doing the “considering”? Is there a vote? Boy, the road to being the messiah is a tough one. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-christian-questions/502966/18 "2009-07-16T03:53:56Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > He has to defeat Israel’s enemies, restore the Temple and bring world peace. Once he does that, the Jews will consider accepting him as Messiah. Herod’s temple or Solomon’s temple? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-christian-questions/502966/19 "2009-07-16T04:16:10Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Herod’s temple or Solomon’s temple? They were at the same place. Herod’s temple was the rebuilt Solomon’s temple (Actually, it was an extension of Ezra’s temple, which was the rebuilt Solomon’s temple). Just the Temple. It needs to get up and running again before you know he’s the messiah. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-christian-questions/502966/20 "2009-07-16T04:21:31Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > He does all this, he gets my vote! Who’s doing the “considering”? Is there a vote? Boy, the road to being the messiah is a tough one. Considering he has the guy who created the Universe backing him, it shouldn’t be too impossible. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-christian-questions/502966.md?page=2)