# Jewish dopers: "A Jew" vs "Jewish" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 14, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-a-jew-vs-jewish/521219 "2009-12-14T15:43:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-a-jew-vs-jewish/521219/81 "2009-12-21T16:44:42Z")
> [@DMark](#): > > Also, maybe there is some residual animosity from the old days when people would use “Jew” as a verb Old days, as in “10 minutes ago”? People use that expression all the time. Not everyone of course. But it comes up all the time if you listen for it. Here is a test - go ahead and use it yourself, and see if your conversation partner objects or is tacitly complicit in the message you have sent. The complicit ones are the ones that perpetuate the use by not objecting, and every so often it gets used when a Jew or Jewish person is around and we hear about it. That is only the tip of the iceberg though - are we to believe that people ONLY use the term when Jews are around? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-a-jew-vs-jewish/521219/82 "2009-12-21T18:10:48Z")
In one of my journalism courses years ago, we were discussing appropriate/inappropriate terminology and the professor informed us that the term “Jew” was perfectly acceptable, and not derogatory. A few people in the class expressed disbelief, convinced that it was somehow offensive in a way that “Jewish” was not. The entire group of offendees comprised people who weren’t themselves Jewish—a phenomenon that appears to repeat itself in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-a-jew-vs-jewish/521219/83 "2009-12-21T18:56:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’ve never heard that, no. That’s not a thing. People don’t say that. Yes, yes they do. > **[Urban Dictionary: jewish](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jewish&page=2)** > > that's jewish: A horrid term used to describe things that are stupid by non-jews, these people are ignorant ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-a-jew-vs-jewish/521219/84 "2009-12-21T19:04:55Z")
No, no they don’t. The Urban Dictionary isn’t much a source, by the way. Like 3/4 of it is shit that nobody actually says. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-a-jew-vs-jewish/521219/85 "2009-12-21T19:10:55Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > The entire group of offendees comprised people who weren’t themselves Jewish—a phenomenon that appears to repeat itself in this thread. Perhaps you are not reading the same thread as I am? The thread I am reading has people of all variations recognizing that either term might be offensive depending on the context. That the context might not always be clear makes people, again of all variations, pause when they hear it or use it. Because of the high-context meaning in what is known to be a low-context language, the social costs of being misunderstood are high, and if you mean to be understood that you are speaking with disdain, malice, etc., then IMHO the social costs of being understood are high too. BTW, that you would expect that one must identify themselves as “Jewish” or “not Jewish” in this thread in order for you to correlate opinions is pretty telling to me too, but this not being the pit I will leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-a-jew-vs-jewish/521219/86 "2009-12-21T19:15:29Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I cannot be the only person who has heard someone being stingy with money being referred to as “being Jewish”? I’ve never heard it, and my relatives, or so I’ve heard, trace back to King David or something like that. I have heard it called “miserly”, “tight-fisted”, “Scrooge-like”, and much more. But the actual words “being Jewish”? No, that must be one the non-Jews have managed to keep among themselves while I am around. Wouldn’t surprise me that people use it, but I have never heard it myself and I am approaching 50. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-a-jew-vs-jewish/521219/87 "2009-12-21T19:24:10Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > Um, you mean like me…? 🙂 > > You have the right to your opinions, but I strongly disagree – think of the word “liberal” or “conservative.” Whichever one you are, wouldn’t you rather be able to call yourself that, with pride, rather than accept that the other side has poisoned it forever, and you have to look for a new descriptive? > > This isn’t about forgetting, this is about reclaiming what is ours. And you have the right to yours of course, but that is a completely different matter. Not what I was referring to was this: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **Noone Special** > Which in my, personal mind means we should work to erase the pejorative history rather than to perpetuate it – light a candle rather than curse the darkness, as it were. I used the word “forget” where **noone special** used “erase”. You are talking about a concerted effort to reclaim a word that is used to shame when used externally as a symbol of internal pride, if I understand you correctly. That is all well and good, it has certainly been done before with terms like “nigger”, “queer”, “gay”, and probably others too I can’t think of OTTOMH. But that is a completely different discussion than what **Noone Special** proposed. BTW, I don’t take well to either label “liberal” or “conservative”, but as a marketing person, I am not naive enough to think that I alone get to position myself in the competition of ideas in the marketplace. I spend a considerable amount of effort positioning my competition, and it can be very effective for my own goals. I would expect my competition to do exactly that as well, although I am glad when they don’t, or when they don’t do it well. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-a-jew-vs-jewish/521219/88 "2009-12-21T19:29:34Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > And you have the right to yours of course, but that is a completely different matter. > > Not what I was referring to was this: > > I used the word “forget” where **noone special** used “erase”. > > You are talking about a concerted effort to reclaim a word that is used to shame when used externally as a symbol of internal pride, if I understand you correctly. > > That is all well and good, it has certainly been done before with terms like “nigger”, “queer”, “gay”, and probably others too I can’t think of OTTOMH. > > But that is a completely different discussion than what **Noone Special** proposed. Um… check your quotes – either you missed that I posted both or you think I have a Multiple Personality Disorder 😃 More seriously, by “erase” I did **not** mean “forget.” I meant “reclaim as to make the past meaning irrelevant and unthinkable.” So I don’t think my two posts are at odds. Either this or I don’t understand what you’re getting at (which at 9:30 PM my time after a long day is a distinct possibility… :)) ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-a-jew-vs-jewish/521219/89 "2009-12-21T19:50:54Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > Um… check your quotes – either you missed that I posted both or you think I have a Multiple Personality Disorder 😃 No comment 🙂 I did miss that. But see how even referring to the same person in either 2nd person or third person could cause confusion and hurt feeling? 🙂 Even though grammatically, and denotationally. nothing was amiss? It is the context that matters. > [@](#): > > More seriously, by “erase” I did **not** mean “forget.” I meant “reclaim as to make the past meaning irrelevant and unthinkable.” So I don’t think my two posts are at odds. I don’t think that is the first thing anyone thinks of when they read about how memories of what has happened to the Jews are worth erasing though. Maybe that wasn’t the best word choice. I understand your intended point now, not saying it is a good idea or not, but the 2nd attempt conveyed what you meant much better than the first IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-a-jew-vs-jewish/521219/90 "2009-12-21T19:58:49Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Maybe that wasn’t the best word choice. > > I understand your intended point now, not saying it is a good idea or not, but the 2nd attempt conveyed what you meant much better than the first IMHO. Granted… 🙂 My English is very good (I am, or at least used to be, a Native Speaker), but it **is** a bit rusty – at times that means I **will** choose a word that looks peculiar. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-a-jew-vs-jewish/521219/91 "2009-12-21T22:21:57Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Perhaps you are not reading the same thread as I am? > > The thread I am reading has people of all variations recognizing that either term might be offensive depending on the context. That the context might not always be clear makes people, again of all variations, pause when they hear it or use it. > > Because of the high-context meaning in what is known to be a low-context language, the social costs of being misunderstood are high, and if you mean to be understood that you are speaking with disdain, malice, etc., then IMHO the social costs of being understood are high too. > > BTW, that you would expect that one must identify themselves as “Jewish” or “not Jewish” in this thread in order for you to correlate opinions is pretty telling to me too, but this not being the pit I will leave it at that. Sorry, did you say something? I was staring at my thumbnail, and must have nodded off. ---
**Author:** ![EvilHamsterOnCrack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@EvilHamsterOnCrack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilHamsterOnCrack)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-a-jew-vs-jewish/521219/92 "2009-12-21T22:23:06Z")
I’m jewish. I’m a jew. To me its all the same. I went to a jewish school most of my formative years and never once thought the word “jew” was pejorative, as we used it all the time to describe ourselves and other jews. I mean… really. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-a-jew-vs-jewish/521219/93 "2009-12-21T22:31:29Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Sorry, did you say something? I was staring at my thumbnail, and must have nodded off. I guess that tells us how much you care about the topic and alerts us to the value of any earlier or later comments you might make. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-a-jew-vs-jewish/521219/94 "2009-12-21T22:47:46Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, no they don’t. The Urban Dictionary isn’t much a source, by the way. Like 3/4 of it is shit that nobody actually says. Seems there’s a Facebook group regarding it as well: > **[Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2243004992&v=wall)** And here’s somebody asking about it on Yahoo: > **[Yahoo Search - Web Search](https://search.yahoo.com/)** > > The search engine that helps you find exactly what you're looking for. Find the most relevant information, video, images, and answers from all across the Web. And how about this: [http://www.43things.com/things/view/169249/spend-money-wisely](http://www.43things.com/things/view/169249/spend-money-wisely) Or this discussion regarding racially offensive terms: > **[Log in](https://www.veggieboards.com/posts/841074/)** Need I go on? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-a-jew-vs-jewish/521219/95 "2009-12-21T22:48:49Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > I’ve never heard it, and my relatives, or so I’ve heard, trace back to King David or something like that. > > I have heard it called “miserly”, “tight-fisted”, “Scrooge-like”, and much more. But the actual words “being Jewish”? No, that must be one the non-Jews have managed to keep among themselves while I am around. Wouldn’t surprise me that people use it, but I have never heard it myself and I am approaching 50. The world’s a big place. Perhaps it just isn’t said in your small corner of it. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-a-jew-vs-jewish/521219/96 "2009-12-21T23:34:19Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > I guess that tells us how much you care about the topic and alerts us to the value of any earlier or later comments you might make. Thanks! My comment was not complex. In my personal experience, when it comes to assessing whether a particular racial/ethnic identifier is culturally acceptable (whether it be “Jew,” or “black,” or “Indian,” etc.) I’ve found that members of the target group tend to be much less sensitive—indeed, frankly couldn’t give a shit—while well-meaning [usually] white people are the ones who feel uncomfortable, take offense, and crusade to revise the language. That appears to be largely borne out in this thread, by the posters who have bothered to identify themselves as Jewish or non-Jewish. That you managed somehow to extrapolate from that that I require posters to identify themselves as Jewish or non-Jewish (as though I tote around my own personal stack of adhesive Stars of David for just these occasions) is also revealing, albeit somewhat difficult to comprehend. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-a-jew-vs-jewish/521219/97 "2009-12-22T00:18:56Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > The world’s a big place. Perhaps it just isn’t said in your small corner of it. It isn’t said anywhere, but even if it was it would only mean that “Jewish” can sometimes be used as an insult for non-Jews, so would have no bearing on the “Jew” coversation. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-a-jew-vs-jewish/521219/98 "2009-12-22T01:20:39Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I’ve found that members of the target group tend to be much less sensitive—indeed, frankly couldn’t give a shit—while well-meaning [usually] white people are the ones who feel uncomfortable, take offense, and crusade to revise the language. I can personally testify to that. Growing up in Oklahoma I rarely met any Jews. And if you’d asked me 15 years ago, I probably would have said that calling someone a “Jew” was impolite and “Jewish person” was preferable. But that was before I met my lovely Jewish wife and fathered two Jewish kids, one of whom is diligently preparing for his Bar Mitzvah next summer. I hope my kids always proudly call themselves Jews. Treating “Jew” (the noun) like an insult is just giving power to the haters. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-a-jew-vs-jewish/521219/99 "2009-12-22T02:21:42Z")
> [@Khadaji](#): > > Do you prefer “Jewish” to “A Jew?” > Will you explain why? Don’t care. The noun form has been used as a pejorative very rarely, while the adjective has never been used as such. This is why there might be a perceived difference. Anyway, I have friends that use the word _Jew_ as a verb, though that has more to do with humor and “taking back” words than ordinary usage. ---
**Author:** ![lindsaybluth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90db22/32.png) [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-a-jew-vs-jewish/521219/100 "2009-12-22T02:49:19Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > All ages find such humor. I am of the previous generation to you, and we learned about stereotyping as a bad thing, because it leads to discrimination, both overt and covert. Perhaps your generation didn’t learn that? Is this a “Get off my lawn” swipe or something? I’m sorry your PC-ness gets in the way of you having fun. As people have repeated over and over, it’s intention that matters, not worrying about ruffling feathers. As for your high context/low context language bullshit, the majority of communication between two people chatting is nonverbal, so I fail to see how this matters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-a-jew-vs-jewish/521219.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-a-jew-vs-jewish/521219.md?page=6)