# Jewish Dopers: What's the deal? How would you handle this? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 3, 2008, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-whats-the-deal-how-would-you-handle-this/461841 "2008-09-03T07:57:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-whats-the-deal-how-would-you-handle-this/461841/81 "2008-09-08T13:56:43Z")
> [@Li\_l\_Pluck](#): > > \*\*NAF1138 \*\*and \*\*Anne Neville \*\*both responded pretty much as I would have (thank you, you two), so I don’t think that there’s anything more factual that I can add. > > I will say this, though: Whevenver people find out that this kippah-wearing (most of the time) (kippah sort of =yarmulke=skullcap) Jew is both an atheist and a practicing Jew (albeit not Orthodox), and they ask me (understandably so) how I can be an atheist and a Jew, I tell them that Judaism doesn’t require that I believe in God–it _does_, however, require that I believe in tzedek (justice), tikkun olam (repair of the world), g’milut chasadim (acts of lovingkindness), and living an ethical life. Honestly, what more could you ask for? IOW, for me, Judaism can be a religion, a culture, etc., but, basically, it’s a way of life. > > I also tell them that my belief (and, most definitely, Jewish belief) is not that our way is the _only_ way–it’s just _our_ way. Heh, one of the things I very much like about Judaism is the notion of the so-called “Noahide laws” - that is, that _in traditional Judaism itself_ there is the notion that those who are not Jewish who practice basic rules of benevolence are \*morally equal \* to any Jew’ after all, Noah himself is considered a most righteous man - and he wasn’t a Jew (though in the mythology he was the ancestor of everyone, Jew or not). ---
**Author:** ![corvidae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/898d66/32.png) [@corvidae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/corvidae)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-whats-the-deal-how-would-you-handle-this/461841/82 "2008-09-08T21:39:15Z")
> [@Li\_l\_Pluck](#): > > Thank you very much. > > I must say, when I bought the coursebooks the other day and opened them up, I was like, “Oh, shit!” It’s all (well, 99.x%) in aleph-bet, with very little English. And it’s unpointed, too! I am sooooo screwed. Then I realized that, no, I’ll be fine once I get into the habit. If I don’t make a complete fool of myself first. > > (For the few here who might not know, Hebrew can be written with dots and dashes underneath some of the letters (pointed Hebrew), or without. These serve as vowel sounds–ay, ee, oo, etc. Because I don’t have to read Hebrew often (my shul uses a prayerbook that has a great deal of transliteration–putting the letters in “regular” alphabet–except for the prayerbook we use for High Holy Days, which has less transliteration), I prefer the vowel sounds. And while I’m certainly capable of reading some unpointed Hebrew, the vowel sounds are helpful until one becomes re-acclimated.) Yeah, it can be a bitch to read - and I’ve been reading Hebrew since preschool! The words are so freaking long, and the lack of vowels is difficult. It really helped me to remember that the ayins are pronounced “eh” . Still, what a beautiful, bitter and expressive language. My grandparents have been gone for years, and I really miss the sound of it. ---
**Author:** ![unspun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b9bd4f/32.png) [@unspun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unspun)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-whats-the-deal-how-would-you-handle-this/461841/83 "2008-09-09T14:14:13Z")
> [@Li\_l\_Pluck](#): > > How long ago did you make aliyah, and from where? Do you have family there? And how do you like it? If Hebrew is not your first language (or one of your first languages), how did you find picking it up? Just curious. I moved there about 4 years ago.. 4? 5? christ it’s almost 2009! Anyway, I lived on various kibbutzim the whole time, as I don’t want to live in cities anymore, and found the whole kibbutz idea intriguing. Unfortunately the reality is that it’s pretty much a failed concept. What few kibbutzim remain uncommercialized are struggling, and even the fully commercialized ones are more or less just moshavim now, and this despite much govt and other agency loans - most of which still await repayment. I can say that Israeli culture does not appeal to me much. On an individual basis people can be extremely pleasant and kind (and this may not make sense) but collectively they’re arrogant, chauvinist and brusque. There were certain other things, besides the obvious Palestinian issues, that I couldn’t get my head around, in particular the holiday period where one day we mourn and remember all the soldiers who died for Israel, and the next day WOOHOO! we’re an independent country! PARRRTYYYY! I just couldn’t get into that. As for the language, I found it really hard to get. No small part of this being my inability to grasp new languages 😕 I did an intensive ulpan up to level daled, and in the end was able to read quite well, although understanding conversational Hebrew was still problematic for me. I also can’t help feeling the chauvinism prevalent in society is somewhat rooted in the language. I could never get into the male/female for e.v.e.r.y.thing, with no neutral. ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-whats-the-deal-how-would-you-handle-this/461841/84 "2008-09-09T14:39:23Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I suppose it is flipside of what I have always thought was something admirable about Judaism - it is the one (maybe the only) major religion which does _not_ seek converts, or even particularly _want_ converts. I don’t think that’s true – many major religions much larger than Judaism aren’t particularly evangelical, and some don’t accept converts at all. The Big Two (Christianity and Islam) that do actively try to win new converts come from a similar tradition and operate on the idea that they’re saving souls for the glory of God. Other religions that lack such a concept don’t actively proselytize. Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto, Sikhism, Jainism, all of these either don’t accept converts at all, or will accept converts but don’t actively proselytize (i.e. you have to come to them). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-whats-the-deal-how-would-you-handle-this/461841/85 "2008-09-09T15:03:22Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > I don’t think that’s true – many major religions much larger than Judaism aren’t particularly evangelical, and some don’t accept converts at all. The Big Two (Christianity and Islam) that do actively try to win new converts come from a similar tradition and operate on the idea that they’re saving souls for the glory of God. Other religions that lack such a concept don’t actively proselytize. Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto, Sikhism, Jainism, all of these either don’t accept converts at all, or will accept converts but don’t actively proselytize (i.e. you have to come to them). I dunno about Zoroastrianism, Shinto, Sikhism or Jainism, but certainly there are factions of Hinduism than are pretty conversion-oriented, such as Krishna Conciousness. The others may well be “major religions”, but at least here in North America I have not actually met any practitioner of them, except for the occasional Sikh. Of course I may have met 'em but not known it. Certainly when one considers the “major religions” here in North America, it is generally those religions or religious practices which actively practice prosthelitism that spring to mind - with the exception of Judaism. ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-whats-the-deal-how-would-you-handle-this/461841/86 "2008-09-09T15:38:15Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I dunno about Zoroastrianism, Shinto, Sikhism or Jainism, but certainly there are factions of Hinduism than are pretty conversion-oriented, such as Krishna Conciousness. > > The others may well be “major religions”, but at least here in North America I have not actually met any practitioner of them, except for the occasional Sikh. Of course I may have met 'em but not known it. > > Certainly when one considers the “major religions” here in North America, it is generally those religions or religious practices which actively practice prosthelitism that spring to mind - with the exception of Judaism. So a ‘major religion’ is one that’s practiced in North American? Even if you stretch the definitions of ‘Jew’ to its breaking point, you’d still get less than 20 million Jews worldwide. 890 million Hindus live in India (plus about another 30 million abroad). It’s not as if Hinduism isn’t a major religion just because you yourself do not personally know any Hindus. Jewish culture, thought, and people have made major contributions to modern-day American society, and I’m not saying anything against them. But it’s ridiculous to act as though Judaism, and only Judaism, doesn’t proselytize. ISKCON is a religious movement that sprang from Hinduism, and its status as a sect of Hinduism is sometimes questioned by Hindus and Hare Krishnas alike. I’m not qualified to say they are or aren’t Hindus, any more than I’m qualified to say that the Jews for Jesus are or aren’t Jews. But mainstream Hinduism isn’t much interested in conversion; Hindu doctrine states that there’s many paths to the truth, and so Hindus don’t have that frantic “we must save your souls!!!” rhetoric you see in some salvationist religions. Some Hindu sects accept converts, and others don’t. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-whats-the-deal-how-would-you-handle-this/461841/87 "2008-09-09T15:53:08Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > So a ‘major religion’ is one that’s practiced in North American? Even if you stretch the definitions of ‘Jew’ to its breaking point, you’d still get less than 20 million Jews worldwide. 890 million Hindus live in India (plus about another 30 million abroad). It’s not as if Hinduism isn’t a major religion just because you yourself do not personally know any Hindus. Jewish culture, thought, and people have made major contributions to modern-day American society, and I’m not saying anything against them. But it’s ridiculous to act as though Judaism, and only Judaism, doesn’t proselytize. > > ISKCON is a religious movement that sprang from Hinduism, and its status as a sect of Hinduism is sometimes questioned by Hindus and Hare Krishnas alike. I’m not qualified to say they are or aren’t Hindus, any more than I’m qualified to say that the Jews for Jesus are or aren’t Jews. But mainstream Hinduism isn’t much interested in conversion; Hindu doctrine states that there’s many paths to the truth, and so Hindus don’t have that frantic “we must save your souls!!!” rhetoric you see in some salvationist religions. Some Hindu sects accept converts, and others don’t. YMMV. Hinduism is clearly a “major religion”. You are misreading my post. I discuss Hinduism in the first paragraph, pointing out that at least some varieties are prostheletizing, and then say that “the others” - i.e., Zoroastrianism, Shintoism, etc. - aren’t major religions in North America (and indeed I do not know if Shintoism even exists at all outside of Japan). So your big guns are firing at the wrong target. 😉 As for whether Hare Krishna can be compared to Jews for Jesus - I think they cannot. “Jews for Jesus” is, as the name clearly implies, a _Christian_ organization. There is no accusation that Hare Krishna is really Christian or any other religion. The difference with Judaism is that, while some varieties of Hinduism accept and even encourage conversion and others don’t, no major movement within Judaism seeks converts - from non-Jews. Jewish movements equivalent to Hare Krishna do exist (think Lubavitchers), but they are inevitably focused on “convering” _other Jews_ to their group, not non-Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-whats-the-deal-how-would-you-handle-this/461841/88 "2008-09-09T17:22:24Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Hinduism is clearly a “major religion”. You are misreading my post. I discuss Hinduism in the first paragraph, pointing out that at least some varieties are prostheletizing, and then say that “the others” - i.e., Zoroastrianism, Shintoism, etc. - aren’t major religions in North America (and indeed I do not know if Shintoism even exists at all outside of Japan). So your big guns are firing at the wrong target. 😉 I do not believe I am misunderstanding you at all. You said Judaism is one of the few or even the \*only \*‘major religion’ that doesn’t actively proselytize. I pointed out that any number of major religions with as many or far more members than Judaism are not actively proselytizing or outright do not accept converts at all, full stop. North America is not the world. For that matter, almost half of all Jews live in Israel, which is definitely outside North America. So backpedaling and saying “Oh, I meant major North American religions” is ridiculous. There are indeed Shinto practioners in North America, and scattered communities worldwide, although the bulk of the population is in Japan. There’s a healthy community of Zoroastrians in the USA and Canada. There’s also at least a few million Hindus in North America – and whatever your protests, Hare Krishnas make up only a tiny fraction of Hindus – and Hinduism does not proselytize. > [@](#): > > As for whether Hare Krishna can be compared to Jews for Jesus - I think they cannot. “Jews for Jesus” is, as the name clearly implies, a _Christian_ organization. There is no accusation that Hare Krishna is really Christian or any other religion. The Jews for Jesus controversy is one neither I, nor I suspect you, are qualified to pass judgment on. A lot of people consider anyone who professes to be a member of their religion to be a member of their religion. For example, some Christians don’t feel Mormons should be considered Christians, but Mormons certainly believe they’re Christian, so most people respect their beliefs and consider them Christian. The Hare Krishnas are another group that mainstream Hindus may or may not accept as being Hindu. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-whats-the-deal-how-would-you-handle-this/461841/89 "2008-09-09T17:59:51Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > I do not believe I am misunderstanding you at all. You said Judaism is one of the few or even the \*only \*‘major religion’ that doesn’t actively proselytize. I pointed out that any number of major religions with as many or far more members than Judaism are not actively proselytizing or outright do not accept converts at all, full stop. North America is not the world. For that matter, almost half of all Jews live in Israel, which is definitely outside North America. So backpedaling and saying “Oh, I meant major North American religions” is ridiculous. There are indeed Shinto practioners in North America, and scattered communities worldwide, although the bulk of the population is in Japan. There’s a healthy community of Zoroastrians in the USA and Canada. There’s also at least a few million Hindus in North America – and whatever your protests, Hare Krishnas make up only a tiny fraction of Hindus – and Hinduism does not proselytize. I merely pointed out a mistake in your previous post - you interpreted me as saying that I thought Hinduism wasn’t a “major religion”; that simply wasn’t what I meant at all - I was doubting the major religion status of “the others”, such as Shintoism, which is really more the cultural religion of _Japan_. Now if you are going to argue that you are right and I am wrong on what I actually said, even though it is there for all to read - well, I can’t argue if you get to take _both_ sides. 😃 That being said, i think one can quite readily point out that a religion such as Shintoism, which is tied to the Japanese people, has interesting similarities with and differences to Judaism - which is tied to the Jewish people. Most importantly, Shintoism, in spite of the number of people who (arguably) profess some variety of it, has had very little theological impact on others - I suppose mainly because the Japanese people have not been scattered to the winds. Zorasitrianism and Jainsim I admit I don’t know very much about; they do not I think on any account constitute “major religions”, having few adherents and being pretty local. I merely disagree on your characterization that Hindus “don’t prostheletize”. Hare Krishna certainly does. It may well be the case that most do not, but they are the most visible ones. Thus, of the counter-examples you provided, three I do not think are major (either because they are few in number or are purely local or both), and one I think is major but is not free of prostheletizing. The Sikhs I would say are pretty major and don’t particularly prostheletize, so you get one out of five. > [@](#): > > The Jews for Jesus controversy is one neither I, nor I suspect you, are qualified to pass judgment on. A lot of people consider anyone who professes to be a member of their religion to be a member of their religion. For example, some Christians don’t feel Mormons should be considered Christians, but Mormons certainly believe they’re Christian, so most people respect their beliefs and consider them Christian. The Hare Krishnas are another group that mainstream Hindus may or may not accept as being Hindu. The difference is (or ought to be) obvious; the “Jews for Jesus” are members of _one_ well-recognized religion claiming, merely for the purposes of conversion, to be members of _another_. It is a mere semantic confusion they have deliberately chosen to exploit, due to the nature of Judaism being at the same time a cultural affinity, an ethnicity, and a religion. Their unabashed purpose is the _conversion_ of Jews, quite specifically to evangelical Christianity. To provide them as an example of “Jews” prostheletizing is perverse, as it is in fact an example of Christians prosthelitizing _Jews_. The Hare Krishnas, on the other hand, are either “Hindus” or some variety of Hinduism so far outside the mainstream as to be considered a _new_ religion. No-one claims they are actually (say) Muslims merely pretending to be Hindus; they are not attempting to exploit people’s understanding of what it means to be “Hindu”. They are what they are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-dopers-whats-the-deal-how-would-you-handle-this/461841.md?page=4)