# Jewish-only cities **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 12, 2002, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-only-cities/118553 "2002-07-12T03:44:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2002, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-only-cities/118553/1 "2002-07-12T03:44:46Z")
(This doesn’t seem to be very widely reported, so I’m having trouble digging up better information. If anyone has the details, I’d appreciate cites. I have found references to the outcry, etc., but no details on the bill itself.) So it seems that Sharon and some of his cohorts want to pass a bill authorizing “Jewish-only” cities, keeping away the numerous Israeli Arabs that seem to bother them so much. Seems awfully hypocritical to me, but I’m hoping that I’m just misinformed. Is there any justification for this, other than blatant racism? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2002, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-only-cities/118553/2 "2002-07-12T04:09:41Z")
Why is it hypocritical? ---
**Author:** ![robwrigley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bc79bd/32.png) [@robwrigley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robwrigley)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2002, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-only-cities/118553/3 "2002-07-12T04:14:47Z")
Lookie Here: [http://slate.msn.com//?id=2067898](http://slate.msn.com//?id=2067898) Ironic, isn’t it? I suppose the next step would be restrict Israeli Arabs to special “Arab only” sections of the citites, and making them walk around with red cresents on their sleeves. At least, until some one can find a final solution to the Arab question. “Those who forger history…” Rob ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2002, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-only-cities/118553/4 "2002-07-12T04:15:38Z")
[_Slate_](http://slate.msn.com) has a fuller discussion [here](http://slate.msn.com/?id=2067898), with summaries of and links to reactions in the Israeli press (which are apparently mostly though not uniformly very critical of the idea, e.g., calling it “a blatant declaration of the effective collapse of Israeli democracy”). I haven’t read the details of the bill either, but it sounds like a serious injustice. “Hypocritical” may not be quite the right word, except perhaps that Israel generally likes to point out that it by and large treats its Arab citizens equally with its Jewish ones, in contrast to the way Jews have been treated in a number of Arab states. ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2002, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-only-cities/118553/5 "2002-07-12T04:27:18Z")
I agree this is a very bad move, and will in all probability not stand up to the Israeli courts. I agree that Israeli Arabs are treated like second class citizens sometimes, and I agree that this should be remedied. But, at most, this is a political move by the National Religious Party during war time to get their way in a cabinet which will fall pretty soon. It is a move during war time that would be unthinkable during peace time, much like what we have seen in the US in the past 9 months. It is a truly ugly thing, perpetuated by those who are using convenient politics to get their way at the expense of a Democratic Israel. But, at heart, it is a political gesture which will never stand a court test. ---
**Author:** ![bagkitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ab992/32.png) [@bagkitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bagkitty)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2002, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-only-cities/118553/6 "2002-07-13T03:39:05Z")
OP: not quite right. The only reason they want to pass the law is to overturn a court decision that said that the practice of the Jewish Agency (a quasi-governmental body that owns approximately 90% of the land within the borders of Israel proper [i.e., not including the occupied territories]) was illegal. The status quo was that non-Jewish Israelis were not permitted to lease land from the Agency. An Israeli Arab challenged that in court, the practice (which has been Jewish Agency policy since before Israeli independence) was determined to be illegal, and now Sharon and a lot of his cabinet want to go back to the status quo. The “Jewish only” policies of the Agency are nothing new. Given the quasi-governmental nature of the Agency, such policies go a long way in explaining why the original Zionism=Racism resolutions were adopted in the early 70s. What is amazing is that the majority of North Americans are ignorant about this practice. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2002, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-only-cities/118553/7 "2002-07-13T07:31:26Z")
> [@](#): > > _THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open to the immigration of Jews and for the Ingathering of the Exiles from all countries of their dispersion; will promote the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; will be based on the precepts of liberty, justice and peace as invisaged by the prophets of Israel; **will uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed or sex** ; will guarantee full freedom of conscience, worship, education and culture; will safeguard the sanctity and inviolability of the shrines and Holy Places of all religions; and will dedicate itself to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations._ > > Excerpt from the Israeli Declaration of Independence > [@](#): > > _If we reach equality between Israel’s Arab and Jewish citizens it will contribute a great deal to peace between the Arab states and the State of Israel_ > > Shimon Peres That’s the type of sentiment I would expect from a country that we consider to be closely aligned to us. Even a hard-liner like Sharon has talked about co-existence with Palestine in the past. Now he can’t even co-exist with his own citizens, if they happen to be Arab. It still seems hypocritical for a nation that has bemoaned prejudice against them for such a long period of time (rightfully so, in a large number of cases), to then turn around and governmentally endorse prejudice. I am happy to see that there is quite a bit of outcry in Israel regarding this decision, so maybe there’s some hope after all. Bryan, Even though many Israeli newspapers agree with me, I have no issue with dropping that particular word, as that’s hardly the worse thing I’m saying about their government in this situation. Hell, I’d much rather be considered a hypocrite than a racist. Would you care to elaborate why you don’t think it’s hypocritical? Better yet, if you support the bill, would you care to share your reasons? bagkitty, Thanks for the additional information. I’ve slowly been finding new sources so I can draw better conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2002, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-only-cities/118553/8 "2002-07-13T11:42:49Z")
I questioned the use of the word “hypocritical” in the OP because nothing you originally said gave evidence that Israel was acting in a manner counter to its stated beliefs, especially since you didn’t bother to give details or links to what prompted you to start this thread in the first place. The word “hypocritical” gets thrown around a lot on GD, many times incorrectly. You are confusing the Israeli Cabinet with the Jewish people. The Cabinet made a bad decision, as do government bodies all around the world, and that decision is rightly being challenged in the courts and in the press. This decision doesn’t even come close to invalidating the Jewish claim on being the victims of systematic violence for decades (or centuries) and I find your linking of the two to be, at best, a kneejerk response taken without thinking. I’m not sure that you are drawing conclusions as much as jumping to them. As for the particulars, I’ll say again that this is a bad decision, and can only create more division among Isreali citizens, and not just ethnically. At this stage, however, it remains just a bill that has gained the approval of the cabinet. As I understand it, the bill will have no legal strength until and unless the legislature votes to support it. Even then, it faces court challenges. You’re of course free to challenge Israeli government decisions, as are the Israeli citizens and press, but as soon as you try to raise the spectre of a grieving holocaust survivor, you start to lose credibility. The issues are related, but they are not the same, and one does not invalidate the other. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2002, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-only-cities/118553/9 "2002-07-13T16:58:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > **I questioned the use of the word “hypocritical” in the OP because nothing you originally said gave evidence that Israel was acting in a manner counter to its stated beliefs, especially since you didn’t bother to give details or links to what prompted you to start this thread in the first place. The word “hypocritical” gets thrown around a lot on GD, many times incorrectly.** I couldn’t give details or links, because I couldn’t find the printed source in which I originally read the article, and most media outlets didn’t seem to think this issue was worth covering. I did a search on CNN and Reuters before posting but found nothing. I stated as much in the OP. I did find an archived article on the JPost website, but it required a fee to access. I did ask for more information, but the article I read seemed sufficient for me to come to my original conclusion. > [@](#): > > **You are confusing the Israeli Cabinet with the Jewish people.** No, I blamed Sharon and his cohorts, not the Jewish people. I was very happy to see (and post) that a large number of Jewish people were strongly against this. > [@](#): > > **The Cabinet made a bad decision, as do government bodies all around the world, and that decision is rightly being challenged in the courts and in the press.** I felt this was more than just a “bad decision”, which is something that governments make all the time. > [@](#): > > **This decision doesn’t even come close to invalidating the Jewish claim on being the victims of systematic violence for decades (or centuries) and I find your linking of the two to be, at best, a kneejerk response taken without thinking. I’m not sure that you are drawing conclusions as much as jumping to them.** Care to share with me where I made any such statements? I said that the Jews have bemoaned prejudice over a long period of time. I also said they have been right in a large number of cases. Nothing about invalidating their claims, etc. > [@](#): > > **You’re of course free to challenge Israeli government decisions, as are the Israeli citizens and press, but as soon as you try to raise the spectre of a grieving holocaust survivor, you start to lose credibility.** Since I never mentioned, inferred, or even thought about the holocaust in relation to this issue, while you did bring it up, who gets to lose credibility? I was pointing out the fact that Israel is a democratic society, where all are treated equally under the Declaration of Independence, yet the government is doing quite the opposite. **Period.** ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2002, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-only-cities/118553/10 "2002-07-13T17:58:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DMC \* > I couldn’t give details or links, because I couldn’t find the printed source in which I originally read the article, and most media outlets didn’t seem to think this issue was worth covering. I did a search on CNN and Reuters before posting but found nothing. I stated as much in the OP. CNN and Reuters hardly constitute “most media outlets”. With a simple google search of “israel cabinet arab land”, I found [this BBC article](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_2115000/2115857.stm) dated last _Monday_ on this topic. Incidentally, an editorial titled “Israel’s step backward” appeared on page B2 of Friday’s Montreal _Gazette_. Media-bashing is old hat, and the fact that something doesn’t get screaming headlines from every outlet doesn’t mean the issue has been widely dismissed or ignored. > [@](#): > > Care to share with me where I made any such statements? I said that the Jews have bemoaned prejudice over a long period of time. I also said they have been right in a large number of cases. Nothing about invalidating their claims, etc. > … > Since I never mentioned, inferred, or even thought about the holocaust in relation to this issue, while you did bring it up, who gets to lose credibility? There’s a rather serious contradiction in these statements, though it depends entirely on what you mean by “a long period of time”. Did you mean one year, or ten, or twenty? Such a vague phrase could easily mean 60 years, and there are people still alive who have memories going back this far. I don’t know of a specific post-WW2 moment when anti-Jewish prejudice abruptly _started_, so how far back does your “long period of time” extend? Strictly speaking, one could trace prejudice back to ancient Egypt, but to keep the discussion reasonably grounded, one may as fall back on the most significant Jewish events in living memory, and those would be the holocaust of WW2 and the founding of Israel in 1948. The upshot of all this is: if you want to discuss a serious topic, don’t use vague phrases. Or at least don’t act surprised when someone points out how the phrases are damaging to the tone of your argument. > [@](#): > > I was pointing out the fact that Israel is a democratic society, where all are treated equally under the Declaration of Independence, yet the government is doing quite the opposite. **Period.** I still don’t see “hypocritical” being an applicable term. “Unconstitutional”, sure. If anything, it should be compared to the interment of Japanese citizens in the United States, also during WW2. Wartime prompts all variety of bad ideas that create more problems than they solve. I’m hoping the Israeli legislature will shoot this idea down, and that it will continue to be blasted in the press. The actions of the cabinet are reprehensible and likely illegal, but that is irrelevant to whatever they have “bemoaned” or the very real horrors visited on Jews in the last century. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2002, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-only-cities/118553/11 "2002-07-13T18:14:12Z")
As for my “such a long period of time” reference, I was thinking throughout their history, as in many centuries. As for the other issue, I hate trotting out definitions, but I don’t see any way around it. hypocrisy: The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness. The Declaration of Independence (a government document, I presume) professes equality for all. The government, with this bill, is demonstrating that they don’t actually possess those virtues. Any questions? Now can we get back to the question at hand, namely is there any justification for this, one that would make sense to anyone who actually believes in the message excerpted from their Declaration? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2002, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-only-cities/118553/12 "2002-07-13T18:47:55Z")
This government didn’t write that declaration, they inherited it from a previous government. The word “hypocrisy” doesn’t apply (though, again, “unconstitutional” might). If you could find a _recent_ statement (by which I mean in the last ten years or so) of one of the 17 cabinet members in which Arab Israeli rights are defended, you might have a case for hypocrisy. Many centuries, hmm? And you “never mentioned, inferred, or even thought about the holocaust”. Riiiiiight… (besides, it’s “implied”, not “inferred”). Putting that aside, since no-one is (yet) arguing that the cabinet’s move was a good one, it’s so far a rather relaxed debate. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2002, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-only-cities/118553/13 "2002-07-13T19:43:17Z")
As an aside: Mecca has been a Moslems-only city for a long, long time… Non-Moslems can’t even VISIT, let alone reside there. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2002, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-only-cities/118553/14 "2002-07-13T21:10:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by C K Dexter Haven \* > \*\*As an aside: Mecca has been a Moslems-only city for a long, long time… Non-Moslems can’t even VISIT, let alone reside there. \*\* While that’s absolutely correct, Saudi Arabia doesn’t claim to be a democracy. I’m not a fan of many Middle Eastern governments at the moment, but this was specifically about the democracy of Israel and its policies. Bryan, As you seem to think you can read my mind, I’ll just stop debating with you and let you have the continue by using your psychic powers. Once again, back to the original question. Is there any justification for this policy, or is it purely racism? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2002, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-only-cities/118553/15 "2002-07-13T21:18:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DMC \* > \*\* > Once again, back to the original question. Is there any justification for this policy, or is it purely racism? \*\* Well, in theory, assuming that city could be made 100% muslim-free, there would be a rather dramatic decrease in terrorism, in that city. Of course, since making a city muslim-free is pretty much impossible in this day and age, I don’t see it happening, even if the Israeli courts OK it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2002, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-only-cities/118553/16 "2002-07-13T21:56:05Z")
Oooh, I feel so tempted to make a pit-worthy comment. But I can only go by what the OP actually says, not what he/she is thinking. So far, I’m unimpressed. If passed, the policy is useless, since it only antagonizes large segments of the Israeli population (including Jewish segments) and does not promise to significantly increase internal security. One of the many unfortunate aspects of being at war is that governments have to be _seen_ to be taking steps, even if no useful steps are possible. From a strictly amoral viewpoint, it _might_ be useful to support such legislation as a means of mollifying and appeasing the more extreme elements of the Israeli government. Trouble is, appeasing them is a temporary solution at best. Well, I’m trying my darnedest to actually _debate_ the issue by introducing a (very) weak “pro” position. So far, everyone (including me) is opposed to the legislation and what it represents. Funny thing is, I don’t accept the false dichotomy offered by the OP to the point where I would call the action one of pure racism. Desperation and cheap politics, sure. Pure racism? Nah. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-only-cities/118553/17 "2002-07-14T18:56:52Z")
The idea is dead, never got to the floor: [http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=186584](http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=186584) ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2002, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-only-cities/118553/18 "2002-07-15T05:17:51Z")
**Moderator’s Note:** Fixed link in above post. ---
**Author:** ![Halo13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Halo13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Halo13)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-only-cities/118553/19 "2002-07-21T17:09:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*Why is it hypocritical? \*\* Ekers you’re on to something, as far as Sharon goes anyway. The man is extremely racist, probably guilty of war crimes in Labanon, Sharon happy condoned the non-lethal ethnic cleansing Isreal commited when they told tens of thousnds of palestinian to leave their homes or suffer violence or death. It was a systematic push lead by the zionists in Isreal to recapure the ‘homeland’, too bad Palestine was home to Palestinians for thousands of years since the zionist’s mythical ‘homeland’, right? So there is no hypocracy in Sharons actions, he is a shallow and violent beast, sadly he is likely the product of his enviroment, I pity him condesending kind of way. ;j I’m not an anti-semite for you paranoid religious people. I simply oppose the departure from reality thats is characteristic of all religion. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2002, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-only-cities/118553/20 "2002-07-21T19:49:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Halo13 \* > **too bad Palestine was home to Palestinians for thousands of years since the zionist’s mythical ‘homeland’, right?** Are you saying that the area was not the original center of Jewish life until the first century? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-only-cities/118553.md?page=2)