# Jewish punk rock, swastikas and the Holocaust **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 22, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-punk-rock-swastikas-and-the-holocaust/537000 "2010-04-22T16:22:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-punk-rock-swastikas-and-the-holocaust/537000/1 "2010-04-22T16:22:00Z")
[This thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=560571) began with a question about the band KISS–who are not considered “punk rock”–but the subject of the Ramones was raised, and their occasional use of Nazi imagery and/or lyric references. Some quick research turned up some material which may be of interest. To avoid the perception of “hijack,” and also to call the topic to the attention of some who probably skipped the other thread, I thought I’d start a new one. > [@a question about KISS (the rock group)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-kiss-the-rock-group/536966/8): > > The Ramones never wore swastika T-shirts. And only Joey was Jewish. Founding member [Tommy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Ramone) was Jewish as well, in a scene that included a number of others. > [@Saul Austerlitz](#): > > Lou Reed, Joey and Tommy Ramone, Suicide’s Martin Rev and Alan Vega, Jonathan Richman, Patti Smith Group guitarist Lenny Kaye, Richard Hell, Blondie’s Chris Stein, CBGB’s founder Hilly Kristal–the list of Jewish punk notables is lengthy, and impressive. I didn’t find a reliable reference or image of any Ramone in a swastika _shirt_, but they certainly had a few swastikas around them. From [this site](http://www.punk77.co.uk/groups/punkandtheswastika.htm), > [@punk77](#): > > What cannot be denied, is the use of Nazi symbols, imagery and look in the initial styles and fashion of punk rock and scattered references in a handful of songs. > … > Arturo Veag was by 1974 decorating the Ramones loft in dayglo swastikas. > [@a question about KISS (the rock group)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-about-kiss-the-rock-group/536966/9): > > They did have songs called ‘Blitzkrieg Bop’ and ‘Today Your Love, Tomorrow The World’ (lyrics: _I’m a shock trooper in a stupor yes I am/I’m a Nazi schatze you know I fight for the fatherland_), though. I don’t think they did it for shock value as much as to represent mindlessness. And indeed, there was more to it than that, as Dee Dee’s ex-wife’s [book](http://www.amazon.com/Poisoned-Heart-Married-Ramone-Ramones/dp/1597776122/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271952474&sr=8-2) (also reviewed [here](http://www.avclub.com/articles/i-married-dee-dee-ramone,29285/)) makes clear. > [@Vera Ramone King](#): > > It was during his time off that I noticed that he shaved his whole face as usual, except for a small patch that started under his nose and went to the top of his upper lip. In a week he had a Hitler mustache, resembling the very picture of the crazy, despicable German dictator. Dee Dee also started wearing a swastika-d Nazi armband on his upper-left arm. [Delving deeper](http://www.newvilnareview.com/arts-amp-letters/jewish-punks-embrace-nazi-rhetoric-and-imagery.html), it really seems like _many_ Jewish punks/rockers have a curious relationship with Nazism and the Holocaust. > [@Michael Croland](#): > > Since its origins in the 1970s, the punk scene has prominently featured many Jews. Many of those Jews and their bands have had a striking fascination with Nazi symbolism. > … > The Ramones exemplify what Australian cultural studies professor Jon Stratton has identified as the “Jew/Nazi dyad in punk bands.” > … > Tavares finds the style of humor inherent in Jewish punks’ Holocaust rhetoric consistent with longstanding Jewish traditions. “That typical self-irony of the ‘Judenwitz’ exists for centuries and is of course a way of dealing with all the hardship of anti-Semitism. You can cry about it, but you can also laugh it away,” says Tavares. (The Stratton paper is available [here](http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=271772).) The Austerlitz [review](http://www.beliefnet.com/Entertainment/Music/2007/04/Jewish-Punk.aspx) of [this book](http://www.amazon.com/Heebie-Jeebies-CBGBs-Secret-History-Jewish/dp/155652613X/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0) explains, > [@Saul Austerlitz](#): > > Beeber’s book sees punk as a specifically Jewish outgrowth of post-Holocaust awareness–and shame. A new generation of Jewish boys sought to express their horror at the concentration camps by caustically embracing fascist aesthetics and an iconography of raw power. > … > Seeing the Holocaust as a moment of tragic weakness, the Jewish punks sought to never be weak again. > Or so Beeber says. Interesting. I’m neither “punk” (though I like the Ramones, and some of the other bands) nor Jewish. Those closer to the scene and subject: does all this ring true? ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-punk-rock-swastikas-and-the-holocaust/537000/2 "2010-04-22T16:31:25Z")
Sounds like provocation - i.e., wear symbols that are rude and evocative from a design standpoint - than any issues with anti-Semitism or Nazi beliefs… ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-punk-rock-swastikas-and-the-holocaust/537000/3 "2010-04-22T16:37:10Z")
I’m no “closer to the scene” than you are, but it does ring true. Mel Brooks does the same thing, continuously fixating on Hitler and Nazi stuff in his comedy. It is an attempt to derail it of its power, IMHO…TRM (huge Ramones fan) ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-punk-rock-swastikas-and-the-holocaust/537000/4 "2010-04-22T16:53:43Z")
for the OP - did you seem my comments on the Ramones in the thread you linked to? Have you seen the Ramones documentary I reference? I don’t think you’d see much room for confusing provocation vs. genuine embracing of fascist beliefs… ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-punk-rock-swastikas-and-the-holocaust/537000/5 "2010-04-22T17:11:18Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > for the OP - did you seem my comments on the Ramones in the thread you linked to? Have you seen the Ramones documentary I reference? I don’t think you’d see much room for confusing provocation vs. genuine embracing of fascist beliefs… I did see your comments. I have not seen the documentary. I don’t think anyone–myself or any of the sources I linked–is suggesting that the Ramones were genuinely fascist. What _is_ being suggested is that there’s more to this than the “weird fascination” of one or two people. Hey, I don’t know. Read the pages I pointed to and see what you think. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-punk-rock-swastikas-and-the-holocaust/537000/6 "2010-04-22T17:58:22Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > I did see your comments. I have not seen the documentary. > > I don’t think anyone–myself or any of the sources I linked–is suggesting that the Ramones were genuinely fascist. What _is_ being suggested is that there’s more to this than the “weird fascination” of one or two people. > > Hey, I don’t know. Read the pages I pointed to and see what you think. There is a difference between “weird fascination” and, as you quote from one of those links - > [@](#): > > Tavares finds the style of humor inherent in Jewish punks’ Holocaust rhetoric consistent with longstanding Jewish traditions. Mel Brooks. Jewish punks. Jon Stewart putting his finger under his nose and doing a Nazi salute while mocking some political issue. Same as it ever was… …I just don’t see anything here that is super noteworthy… ---
**Author:** ![heathen\_earthling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/13edae/32.png) [@heathen\_earthling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heathen_earthling)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-punk-rock-swastikas-and-the-holocaust/537000/7 "2010-04-22T18:44:37Z")
Was it a '70s thing to put Nazi references in punk and related styles? I guess you still see it occasionally, but I don’t think anyone really popular could get away with using swastikas today. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-punk-rock-swastikas-and-the-holocaust/537000/8 "2010-04-23T09:20:27Z")
In the early 1990’s, there was a brief fling among a few anti-Commie conservatives wearing old Soviet military medals, Hammer & Sickle buttons, etc. but it never caught on. I have a USSR military stripe myself. I think it’s partly disempower-the-enemy-thru-mockery (a reason the Christian societies that developed Halloween dressed up as demons, witches & ghosts) and partly trophy-from-our-war-victory. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-punk-rock-swastikas-and-the-holocaust/537000/9 "2010-04-23T11:36:16Z")
> [@heathen\_earthling](#): > > Was it a '70s thing to put Nazi references in punk and related styles? I guess you still see it occasionally, but I don’t think anyone really popular could get away with using swastikas today. It was a provocative thing - when Malcolm McLaren took over the New York Dolls after their first album, while they were still in the process of flaming out, he tried to relaunch them in Communist garb, in this case, red leather and a hammer and sickle flag behind them on stage. It was meant to be shocking, but in hindsight, it was fashion.