# Jewish Shunning of Interfaith Marriages **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 22, 2019, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-shunning-of-interfaith-marriages/832875 "2019-04-22T09:14:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-shunning-of-interfaith-marriages/832875/61 "2019-04-23T12:35:21Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > I think what **Nava** is saying is that from the perspective of the shunners, they aren’t shunning the person. Rather, the way they see it is that the person being shunned has abandoned the group/family by marrying out of the group. There’s always more than one perspective , even if people outside the situation tend to agree with one more than the other. Yes. There’s parents who, when their child marry, gain a new child. There’s some who lose a child. Which one is which is always influenced by multiple factors and can even change with time: my parents married “to” her hometown of Barcelona (at which point my paternal grandparents knew they could at best hope to see that son once a year), but later moved to his hometown, and which point it was her family who knew they would be seeing her only rarely. If it hadn’t been for modern transportation, they simply wouldn’t have seen each other again. And as recently as three centuries back (which is forever from the American perspective, yesterday for a Catholic and this same afternoon for a Jew), changing religion meant changing legal systems, jobs to which you had access… it was a very, very radical change. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-shunning-of-interfaith-marriages/832875/62 "2019-04-23T12:40:14Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Norway introduced civil ceremonies in 1845 in the “Dissenter” laws which loosened the grip of the State Church. As well as making it legal for citizens to leave the church, it created a way to get married by civil authorities. _makes a note for next time she has a coworker from Basel_ (I’m unlikely to work there again) ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-shunning-of-interfaith-marriages/832875/63 "2019-04-23T14:00:24Z")
> [@Royal\_Nonesutch](#): > > I can personally attest that in 2019, for an American, (baptized and raised in the LDS “Mormon” faith, but haven’t practised in 30+ years) marrying a Polish Catholic woman in Krakow (in a Catholic church ceremony) entailed miles of incredibly complex red tape that included the Polish government, the American government, the Catholic church and the Mormons, all working individually to make things as confusing, expensive and difficult as possible. > > (apparently there are many others in similar situations here in Poland and other Catholic European countries, in particular Belgium for some reason, who choose to elope to Denmark, which is kind of the Las Vegas of Europe when it comes to “quickie” weddings with little paperwork that are sill legally valid in all EU countries, the USA and most other nations) A fairly large part of that red tape, however, probably had nothing to do with an interfaith marriage. It had to do with an _international_ marriage happening in the home country of one of the parties ( since I presume by Polish Catholic you mean someone who is a citizen of Poland rather than someone of Polish ancestry). That can be far more complex than an interfaith marriage - I married my American-born , Buddhist (at the time ) husband in a Catholic ceremony and it required no red tape at all really. There was a standard request for a dispensation which was basically rubber-stamped. My Christian niece married her Israeli husband in the US (couldn’t get married in Israel because she’s not Jewish) - no hassle from the rabbi who officiated, but plenty of coordination with the immigration lawyer regarding when to hold the wedding with respect to the visa application/issuance. ---
**Author:** ![RickG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rickg/32/5174_2.png) [@RickG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickG)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-shunning-of-interfaith-marriages/832875/64 "2019-04-23T14:39:33Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Yet they’ll allow me to self identify as the gender I feel is appropriate, no? > > Oy vey. Depends on the community/denomination. My Conservative synagogue is very LGBTQ friendly, and I think that’s fairly common in the Conservative movement these days. We’re egalitarian, so there are no issues with gender–everyone is the same, ritually speaking. We definitely have a number of active members who are gay, trans, or gender non-binary. A recent (within the last decade or so) decision by the denomination’s law committee basically leaves it up to the local rabbi as to whether they will perform gay weddings, though it is still grounds for expulsion from the Rabbinical Assembly for Conservative rabbis to perform weddings between a Jew and a non-Jew. We do have many Jew/non-Jew couples who are members of the community, and they are most welcome (with ritual restrictions on the non-Jewish spouse), but none of them were married by a Conservative rabbi. I think the Reform/Reconstructionist/Renewal denominations have been openly LGBTQ friendly for many, many years, and are less dogmatic about the performance of mixed marriages under their auspices. Orthodox Judaism, on the other hand, is definitely still very much heteronormative and traditional-gender-role based. Strangely, both Conservative and Orthodox Jews would consider you a Jew based on matrilineal descent, but the Reform movement might not without some Jewish education and practice, if you weren’t raised as a Jew. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-shunning-of-interfaith-marriages/832875/65 "2019-04-23T14:43:06Z")
^I think you are missing my point, but it is a dead horse I’ll stop beating. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-shunning-of-interfaith-marriages/832875/66 "2019-04-23T15:36:25Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Resistance to interfaith or inter-ethnic marriages is not about eugenics. No? Maybe not in your mind, but the effect is the same: keeping the line pure clear back to Aaron or whoever. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Hell, remember when it was a lot stricter? Catholics and Protestants didn’t marry one another. Catholics and Protestants? For my parents a mixed marriage meant you married outside your parish. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-shunning-of-interfaith-marriages/832875/67 "2019-04-23T15:45:03Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Catholics and Protestants? For my parents a mixed marriage meant you married outside your parish. 😉 Hell, my parents belonged to the same parish - still considered mixed because one was Italian and the other Austrian Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-shunning-of-interfaith-marriages/832875/68 "2019-04-23T15:48:28Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > No? Maybe not in your mind, but the effect is the same: keeping the line pure clear back to Aaron or whoever. Except Jews have always accepted converts, even if they weren’t encouraged. Once converted, you are a full Jew, with no distinctions based on your status at birth. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-shunning-of-interfaith-marriages/832875/69 "2019-04-23T16:33:33Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > My first wife’s grandmother refused to come to our wedding because I was a Roman Catholic. > > And she wasn’t Jewish, she was _ **Methodist** _:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: I never found a good explanation for it but -------- that was almost a common thing for a long time. I dated a lot and while my mother never liked any of them the only one she hated was because that particular young lady was Methodist and mother was/is former-Lutheran-turned-RC-by-20. Even a couple interracial relationships didn’t get the flak from her that one did. (early 70s) What it was between Methodists and Catholics back then I don’t know; but in a lot of regions it was quite real. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-shunning-of-interfaith-marriages/832875/70 "2019-04-23T16:41:14Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Except Jews have always accepted converts, even if they weren’t encouraged. Once converted, you are a full Jew, with no distinctions based on your status at birth. Yeah, Jews are mutts - compare my own blue eyes and blond hair to, say, your average Yemenite or Ethiopian Jew, and there’s no way you can argue for any sort of “genetic purity.” That horse has sailed. Instead, Jews have opposed interfaith marriage because ultimately, it means fewer Jews, and as far as many Jews are concerned, there aren’t nearly enough of us as it is. It’s a personnel issue. Jews are supposed to look out for each other, and if children of a mixed marriage aren’t raised as Jews - and they usually aren’t - then they won’t be there for other Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-shunning-of-interfaith-marriages/832875/71 "2019-04-23T17:44:56Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Hell, remember when it was a lot stricter? Catholics and Protestants didn’t marry one another. My mother’s friend from Ireland told her about the time she caught her (Catholic) mother-in-law trying to baptize her eldest in the kitchen sink! I can’t imagine what would’ve happened if she had been Jewish! I don’t think my conservative North Carolina Methodist grandmother was _hugely_ upset by her youngest son marrying an Irish-Bohemian Catholic, (even if she referred to my mother as a “Roman”); when Dad brought her home to meet the family, Grandmother took everyone out to a seafood restaurant for dinner. Because it was a Friday, and the one thing she knew about Catholics was that they ate fish on Fridays. No, what bothered Grandmother more was that Mom was a _Yankee_. I know this because when Mom had firmly established herself in Grandmother’s esteem, Grandmother made sure that all her friends and neighbors knew that “[Mom] is a _Midwesterner_”. ---
**Author:** ![Royal\_Nonesutch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecb155/32.png) [@Royal\_Nonesutch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Royal_Nonesutch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-shunning-of-interfaith-marriages/832875/72 "2019-04-23T18:07:18Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > A fairly large part of that red tape, however, probably had nothing to do with an interfaith marriage. It had to do with an _international_ marriage happening in the home country of one of the parties ( since I presume by Polish Catholic you mean someone who is a citizen of Poland rather than someone of Polish ancestry). That can be far more complex than an interfaith marriage… You’d think so, (I did too) but actually as much paperwork as we had to fill out for the Polish government to apply for a marriage licence due to my not being Polish (as well as having to appear in front of a judge, which neccesitated my providing a court-certified translater at my own expense, which cost a small fortune by Polish standards for 45 minutes of work) actually that was a walk in the park compared to the hoops I had to jump thru to get married in a Catholic ceremony, which was apparently made much more of an issue because officially, Mormons are not considered Christians, even though thanks to the help of a really nice Polish Mormon church leader here in Krakow I was able to provide a certificate stating (in Polish) I had been baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (which was a Really Big Deal for the Catholic priest, who was actually a really lovely man who went to bat for us in appealling to the Cardinal of Krakow, his “Boss” who initially didn’t want to let us get married) but eventually they held a ceremony called a “Concordance” meaning our Catholic ceremony was legally binding, so there was no need for a second civil ceremony. Anyways, enough of the hijack, but I was more than a little surprised how the Catholic church was so reluctant to allow a non-Catholic to marry, even though I vowed to raise any children we have as Catholics (I am 49, Ania is 45, we are not holding our breath…;)) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-shunning-of-interfaith-marriages/832875/73 "2019-04-23T19:12:06Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Except Jews have always accepted converts, even if they weren’t encouraged. Once converted, you are a full Jew, with no distinctions based on your status at birth. I never said there hadn’t been modifications for convenience along the way. But I didn’t know that when it counted. I was sitting in the lunch room with friends, including my future wife but I didn’t know that yet. A beautiful Jewess walked by and greeted me for the first time ever. After she passed I said I should ask her out. FW said, “She’ll never go out with you.” “Why not?” “You’re not Jewish.” “I could convert.” “It doesn’t work that way.” Your honor, it was purest entrapment. I didn’t stand a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2019, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-shunning-of-interfaith-marriages/832875/74 "2019-04-23T19:15:37Z")
> [@Royal\_Nonesutch](#): > > Anyways, enough of the hijack, but I was more than a little surprised how the Catholic church was so reluctant to allow a non-Catholic to marry, even though I vowed to raise any children we have as Catholics (I am 49, Ania is 45, we are not holding our breath…;)) That’s a matter of the specific Church officers involved, really. Other priests / bishops / locations have a lot less of a problem. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-shunning-of-interfaith-marriages/832875/75 "2019-04-24T01:53:25Z")
FWIW > **[Chapter 2: Intermarriage and Other Demographics](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/10/01/chapter-2-intermarriage-and-other-demographics/)** > > The survey suggests that intermarriage is common among Jews; 44% of all currently married Jewish respondents – and 58% of those who have married since Rates of Jews intermarrying are high enough that if we were shunning we’d have little family left! ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-shunning-of-interfaith-marriages/832875/76 "2019-04-24T03:08:59Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Jewess Point of info: In the US at least, this designation is widely seen as at least slightly pejorative, somewhere between “Negress” and “authoress”. There does seem to be something of a [generational movement among younger observant Jewish women to “reclaim” the term](https://forward.com/life/391707/lets-take-back-jewess-from-the-anti-semites/). But I don’t think that’s going to weather the decidedly derogatory usage of “Jewess” by today’s alt-right movement. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-shunning-of-interfaith-marriages/832875/77 "2019-04-24T03:20:20Z")
> [@kopek](#): > > I never found a good explanation for it but -------- that was almost a common thing for a long time. I dated a lot and while my mother never liked any of them the only one she hated was because that particular young lady was Methodist and mother was/is former-Lutheran-turned-RC-by-20. Even a couple interracial relationships didn’t get the flak from her that one did. (early 70s) What it was between Methodists and Catholics back then I don’t know; but in a lot of regions it was quite real. I don’t know why Methodists might have been more anti-Catholic than other Protestants, but when you look at John Wesley’s [Articles of Religion](http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/the-articles-of-religion-of-the-methodist-church) from 1784, which even today’s Methodists still technically profess as their foundation, you notice things that strongly imply, “We aren’t Catholic,” particularly this doozy in Article XV. > [@](#): > > It is a thing plainly repugnant to the Word of God, and the custom of the primitive church, to have public prayer in the church, or to minister the Sacraments, in a tongue not understood by the people. Primitive church? Which Christian religion was holding public prayer in 1784 in a tongue not understood by the people. Take a guess. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-shunning-of-interfaith-marriages/832875/78 "2019-04-24T10:09:59Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Instead, Jews have opposed interfaith marriage because ultimately, it means fewer Jews, and as far as many Jews are concerned, there aren’t nearly enough of us as it is. It’s a personnel issue. Jews are supposed to look out for each other, and if children of a mixed marriage aren’t raised as Jews - and they usually aren’t - then they won’t be there for other Jews. Yeah, one Orthodox former co-worker of mine, when discussing another former co-worker of ours (a non-Jew who had married a Jew), said that intermarriage was going to accomplish what even Hitler couldn’t. (Sometime I should tell the story of what happened when **Tom Scud,** who is not Jewish, had just moved in with me - we’ve now been married almost 10 years - and she called my apartment one day to chat and he answered the phone when I wasn’t there. It was…awkward.) Not that I am remotely religious anyway, and I haven’t been in my entire adult life. And we don’t have kids, which is something I never really had much interest in doing anyway, so I wouldn’t have been producing more baby Jews in any case. **Eva Luna,** Loser Jew (whose Ancestry DNA results just came back as 100% European Jewish, blonde and blue-eyed grandmother be damned). ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-shunning-of-interfaith-marriages/832875/79 "2019-04-24T14:30:24Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > …blue-eyed grandmother be damned). Are blue eyes evidence of gentile ancestry? My grandmother, who grew up in a Russian _shtetl,_ had blue eyes, as does my brother. My Ancestry test came back 99.5% Ashkenazy, and 0.5% from the Indian subcontinent. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2019, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-shunning-of-interfaith-marriages/832875/80 "2019-04-24T14:32:45Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Are blue eyes evidence of gentile ancestry? Probably. I mean, at some point in the past 2,000 years or so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-shunning-of-interfaith-marriages/832875.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewish-shunning-of-interfaith-marriages/832875.md?page=5)