# Jewishness **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 3, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewishness/479678 "2009-01-03T05:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewishness/479678/61 "2009-01-04T06:58:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The flaw in this is the supposition that any significant number of Jews routinely follow "false Messiahs. " They don’t. There have been a couple of notable historical examples of rabbis who convinced followers that they would _become_ Messiahs, but their deaths ended those hopes. No significant number of Jews have ever continued to follow any Messianic claimant after his death (including Jesus), and it’s exceedingly rare that any particular group even gets excited about a _possible_ candidate. The problem with \*this \*is that it’s riddled with variables and qualifiers: “significant,” “routinely,” “coupe of notable,” “exceedingly rare,” “possible,” etc. In the gray areas drawn by your, what do they call them, “weasel words,” there’s space for speculation. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewishness/479678/62 "2009-01-04T07:16:25Z")
> [@](#): > > I mean, I’m not saying that “religious people in general would be doubtful if they were confronted with the actual arrival of some anticipated event that their religion predicted,” nor am I saying that “Jews in particular are prone to this.” Voila, no to both questions. It still seems confusing to me. The two statements seem to be mutually contradictory. The only way to reconcile them would be if there is some religious group other than Jews which you feel is particularly prone to this phenomena. And if that’s the case, why are we talking about Jews? For that matter, if you don’t feel that Jews in particular are prone to this, then why did you call this thread “Jewishness” and use only Jews as examples of what you’re describing? ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewishness/479678/63 "2009-01-04T07:26:52Z")
Do you think it might be because he was having a conversation with the son of a Rabbi? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewishness/479678/64 "2009-01-04T07:35:43Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It still seems confusing to me. The two statements seem to be mutually contradictory. The only way to reconcile them would be if there is some religious group other than Jews which you feel is particularly prone to this phenomena. And if that’s the case, why are we talking about Jews? > > For that matter, if you don’t feel that Jews in particular are prone to this, then why did you call this thread “Jewishness” and use only Jews as examples of what you’re describing? “Prone” has nothing to do with it. Fact: a man claiming to be the messiah was accepted by some Jews, who thus became Christians. Fact: not all Jews accepted this man as the messiah, and continued to expect their messiah to come, if at all, in the future. Speculation: if another person comes along, claiming to be the messiah, I have no doubt, human nature being what it is, that some Jews will accept him, but some will not. Those who do not will still call themselves Jews. Imagine, speculatively, that oh say 10 “messiahs” come along, each one starting a new branch off of the Jewish religion. I’d speculate that even if we were hit with a messiah a year, there would still be a “sect” of people who refused to accept these messiahs, and continued to call themselves Jews. Thus suggesting that ONE of the things that makes Jewishness Jewish is this sense of the messiah being something yet to happen; something that by definition cannot happen in the present. That somehow (speculatively again) “Jewishness” is tied in with this eternal expectation-but-not-fulfillment. Smoothing over much of its history for the sake of discussion, the Roman Catholic Church, as an example, is the “original” branch of Christianity, formed around Jesus the man, around the time of his historical appearance (accepting for discussion that this is a given). Many, many MANY branches or sects have split off from that original branch–although I have no doubt that each branch considers itself the central trunk, and all other sects to be the branches. Nonetheless, let’s give the Romans the home court advantage and call them the original church. Now, imagine a similar history–speculatively–in Judaism. Say over the millenia a thousand messiahs have cropped up, and each one created its own sect of Judaism. (Understanding that according to the concrete milestones explained above, this isn’t really possible; but this was my original thought experiment.) No matter how many messiahs, no matter how many branching sects, there would still be an “original” religion of Judaism, that held fast to its refusal to accept each successive messiah. THAT original sect, speculatively, would seem to me to have as one of its essential, defining factors, the commitment to this messiah-as-a-never-attainable-future-event. Speculation, thought experiment, not theology. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewishness/479678/65 "2009-01-04T07:37:08Z")
> [@WarmNPrickly](#): > > Do you think it might be because he was having a conversation with the son of a Rabbi? Actually I was mistaken. His father is deceased and I was confused: his grandfather was the rabbi. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewishness/479678/66 "2009-01-04T07:48:34Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > The problem with \*this \*is that it’s riddled with variables and qualifiers: “significant,” “routinely,” “coupe of notable,” “exceedingly rare,” “possible,” etc. In the gray areas drawn by your, what do they call them, “weasel words,” there’s space for speculation. No, there really isn’t, and I’m not using weasel words. I’m juts trying to allow room for the extreme exception so as to avoid pedantic objections. Even on the rare ocasions when a Messianic claimant has engendered any interest, is is still completely false to say that their followers in any way left Judaism to follow them. It doesn’t work that way. There was a guy in the 17th Century named Sabbatai Zevi who worked up a pretty good amount of excitement, but that came to a screeching halt when he suddenly converted to Islam. In the 20th Century there was a Hassidic Rabbi named Menachem Schneerson. a Ukranian immigrant living in Brooklyn, who became the center of a Messianic movement in which many expected him to reveal himself any day. Then he died. While there is still a hardcore of sectarians who think that Schneerson isn’t really dead, or that he’ll come back to life, they still don’t think he’s the Messiah YET, and more importantly, _they never stopped practicing Orthodox Judaism_. The idea that even those Jews who might ocassionally think somebody has a shot to be the Messiah ever leave Judaism or “stop being Jews” in order to follow said claimants is totally erroneous and shows an utter lack of understanding of what Jews think the Messiah is. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewishness/479678/67 "2009-01-04T08:00:52Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > “Prone” has nothing to do with it. Fact: a man claiming to be the messiah was accepted by some Jews, who thus became Christians. Actually, none of this can be stated categorically as “fact.” Christianity was primarily a gentile religion, not a Jewish one, and there is no hard evidence that any of his direct Jewish followers thought he was the Messiah. There isn’t even any hard evidence that Jesus CLAIMED to be the Messiah. > [@](#): > > Speculation: if another person comes along, claiming to be the messiah, I have no doubt, human nature being what it is, that some Jews will accept him, but some will not. Once again, there is no question of “accepting” it. He either fulfills the prophecies or he doesn’t. There is no faith factor. > [@](#): > > Those who do not will still call themselves Jews. And so do those who think he might be legit. This is where I think you have your biggest misunderstanding. > [@](#): > > Imagine, speculatively, that oh say 10 “messiahs” come along, each one starting a new branch off of the Jewish religion. This is impossible and has never happened once. It simply doesn’t work that way. Jewisj Messianic claimants do not get followed out of Judaism. They do not teach any new doctrine. > [@](#): > > Smoothing over much of its history for the sake of discussion, the Roman Catholic Church, as an example, is the “original” branch of Christianity, formed around Jesus the man, around the time of his historical appearance (accepting for discussion that this is a given). Many, many MANY branches or sects have split off from that original branch–although I have no doubt that each branch considers itself the central trunk, and all other sects to be the branches. Nonetheless, let’s give the Romans the home court advantage and call them the original church. Now, imagine a similar history–speculatively–in Judaism. Say over the millenia a thousand messiahs have cropped up, and each one created its own sect of Judaism. (Understanding that according to the concrete milestones explained above, this isn’t really possible; but this was my original thought experiment.) No matter how many messiahs, no matter how many branching sects, there would still be an “original” religion of Judaism, that held fast to its refusal to accept each successive messiah. THAT original sect, speculatively, would seem to me to have as one of its essential, defining factors, the commitment to this messiah-as-a-never-attainable-future-event. I’ll say it one more time so it’s clear. _Jewish Messianic claimants do not start new sects_. They do not “branch off” of Judaism. They do not carry Jews out of the religion. It doesn’t work that way. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewishness/479678/68 "2009-01-04T15:57:57Z")
> [@](#): > > “Prone” has nothing to do with it. Fact: a man claiming to be the messiah was accepted by some Jews, who thus became Christians. Fact: not all Jews accepted this man as the messiah, and continued to expect their messiah to come, if at all, in the future. > > Speculation: if another person comes along, claiming to be the messiah, I have no doubt, human nature being what it is, that some Jews will accept him, but some will not. Those who do not will still call themselves Jews. Imagine, speculatively, that oh say 10 “messiahs” come along, each one starting a new branch off of the Jewish religion. I’d speculate that even if we were hit with a messiah a year, there would still be a “sect” of people who refused to accept these messiahs, and continued to call themselves Jews. Thus suggesting that ONE of the things that makes Jewishness Jewish is this sense of the messiah being something yet to happen; something that by definition cannot happen in the present. That somehow (speculatively again) “Jewishness” is tied in with this eternal expectation-but-not-fulfillment. > > Smoothing over much of its history for the sake of discussion, the Roman Catholic Church, as an example, is the “original” branch of Christianity, formed around Jesus the man, around the time of his historical appearance (accepting for discussion that this is a given). Many, many MANY branches or sects have split off from that original branch–although I have no doubt that each branch considers itself the central trunk, and all other sects to be the branches. Nonetheless, let’s give the Romans the home court advantage and call them the original church. Now, imagine a similar history–speculatively–in Judaism. Say over the millenia a thousand messiahs have cropped up, and each one created its own sect of Judaism. (Understanding that according to the concrete milestones explained above, this isn’t really possible; but this was my original thought experiment.) No matter how many messiahs, no matter how many branching sects, there would still be an “original” religion of Judaism, that held fast to its refusal to accept each successive messiah. THAT original sect, speculatively, would seem to me to have as one of its essential, defining factors, the commitment to this messiah-as-a-never-attainable-future-event. > > Speculation, thought experiment, not theology. None of which answers the question I asked. You’re still just repeating yourself and not listening to what other people are saying. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewishness/479678/69 "2009-01-04T17:10:48Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > “Prone” has nothing to do with it. Fact: a man claiming to be the messiah was accepted by some Jews, who thus became Christians. Fact: not all Jews accepted this man as the messiah, and continued to expect their messiah to come, if at all, in the future. > > Speculation: if another person comes along, claiming to be the messiah, I have no doubt, human nature being what it is, that some Jews will accept him, but some will not. Those who do not will still call themselves Jews. Imagine, speculatively, that oh say 10 “messiahs” come along, each one starting a new branch off of the Jewish religion. I’d speculate that even if we were hit with a messiah a year, there would still be a “sect” of people who refused to accept these messiahs, and continued to call themselves Jews. Thus suggesting that ONE of the things that makes Jewishness Jewish is this sense of the messiah being something yet to happen; something that by definition cannot happen in the present. That somehow (speculatively again) “Jewishness” is tied in with this eternal expectation-but-not-fulfillment. I don’t know too much about Jewish theology, but I’m pretty sure that Jews expect to still call themselves Jews when their Messiah comes. So, let’s say there are some who don’t accept the true Messiah, and some who do, and they all consider themselves to be Jews. How does it follow, then, that the NON-acceptance is what defines Jewishness? > [@](#): > > Smoothing over much of its history for the sake of discussion, the Roman Catholic Church, as an example, is the “original” branch of Christianity, formed around Jesus the man, around the time of his historical appearance (accepting for discussion that this is a given). Many, many MANY branches or sects have split off from that original branch–although I have no doubt that each branch considers itself the central trunk, and all other sects to be the branches. Nonetheless, let’s give the Romans the home court advantage and call them the original church. Now, imagine a similar history–speculatively–in Judaism. Say over the millenia a thousand messiahs have cropped up, and each one created its own sect of Judaism. (Understanding that according to the concrete milestones explained above, this isn’t really possible; but this was my original thought experiment.) No matter how many messiahs, no matter how many branching sects, there would still be an “original” religion of Judaism, that held fast to its refusal to accept each successive messiah. THAT original sect, speculatively, would seem to me to have as one of its essential, defining factors, the commitment to this messiah-as-a-never-attainable-future-event. As Diogenes points out, this isn’t how Judaism works. In fact, you point it out here, yourself, as you acknowledge that this is “speculative” history. The Jews have been around for thousands of years, and they haven’t had all these sects branching off over all this time. I think that you are on the wrong track…Jews are looking for the Messiah as defined in their scripture. If they don’t accept “other” Messiahs, I don’t think it’s out of some cultural tendency to be skeptical, but perhaps more out of an expectation that God will live up to what he promised. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewishness/479678/70 "2009-01-04T21:56:15Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Actually I was mistaken. His father is deceased and I was confused: his grandfather was the rabbi. So now there’s \*nothing \*in the OP that you haven’t changed. Many of us have pointed out that if some (or most) Jews accept a messiah, it doesn’t follow that they’re no longer Jews. You have ignored this. So let’s consider a more extreme example: suppose that 99% of Jews accept a messiah, and still call themselves Jews. And suppose that the remaining skeptical Jews choose to call themselves something else, say, Hebrew Fundamentalists, rather than Jews. Who would you consider to be the Jews? ---
**Author:** ![smurfslappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@smurfslappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smurfslappa)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewishness/479678/71 "2009-01-04T23:08:51Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] "I’m just positing that no matter how many messiahs come, claimed by no matter how many Jews, there will always be those Jews who will reject that messiah. Those “eternal Jews,” to coin a clumsy phrase, have thus equated Jewishness with unfulfillable-phrophecy-of-messiah. Making, it seems to me, the refusal to accept a messiah one of the essential things about being Jewish. " [/quote] The rejection of one man as the messiah does not establish a trend, and so you can’t equate rejection of messiahs with Judaism. When and if a new messiah does show up, I think the world will have been waiting for one so long that they readily accept or villify him. Either way, if something like that happened then the world won’t continue to exist as it is but would enter into a period of cleansing that some refer to as the apocalypse. At that point I’m not sure this argument would matter much. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewishness/479678/72 "2009-01-04T23:26:09Z")
> [@smurfslappa](#): > > … Either way, if something like that happened then the world won’t continue to exist as it is but would enter into a period of cleansing that some refer to as the apocalypse. At that point I’m not sure this argument would matter much. At what point did it matter to begin with? ---
**Author:** ![smurfslappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@smurfslappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smurfslappa)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewishness/479678/73 "2009-01-04T23:27:45Z")
[QUOTE=WarmNPrickly] At what point did it matter to begin with? [/quote] True dat ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewishness/479678/74 "2009-01-04T23:43:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Actually, none of this can be stated categorically as “fact.” Christianity was primarily a gentile religion, not a Jewish one, and there is no hard evidence that any of his direct Jewish followers thought he was the Messiah. There isn’t even any hard evidence that Jesus CLAIMED to be the Messiah. > > Once again, there is no question of “accepting” it. He either fulfills the prophecies or he doesn’t. There is no faith factor. > > And so do those who think he might be legit. This is where I think you have your biggest misunderstanding. > > This is impossible and has never happened once. It simply doesn’t work that way. Jewisj Messianic claimants do not get followed out of Judaism. They do not teach any new doctrine. > > I’ll say it one more time so it’s clear. > > _Jewish Messianic claimants do not start new sects_. They do not “branch off” of Judaism. They do not carry Jews out of the religion. It doesn’t work that way. Which I acknowledged in what you quoted but apparently did not read. I was still trying to explain my original “thought experiment,” about which this thread has provided a lot of education for me. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewishness/479678/75 "2009-01-04T23:46:20Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > > [@WarmNPrickly](#): > > > > Let me see if I can straighten this out a bit. I think the missunderstanding here, is that people are expecting that **lissener** is putting a Christian filter on his thought process, but quite clearly he is putting an Athiest filter on his thought process. You see, **lissener** believes that ALL messiahs are false and that the Jewish messiah will never come because it doesn’t exist. This is very important in understanding what **lissener** is saying because to him there is no IF the REAL messiah comes. > > > > But, as in the case of Jesus, many false messiahs will come and the Jews that go on to follow them will no longer be Jewish. This leaves the Jews as the ones that never accept a messiah. The Jews are therefore always waiting for a messiah that will never come. > > > > Am I stating your view correctly **lissener**? > > Pretty close. Thanks. The problem is you’re assuming that Messiah has some supernatural, son of God, **Christian** -esque connotation. It **does not**. To think it does is to put a clearly and unashamedly Christian viewpoint on things; in Judaism the messiah is not divine, not at all. He’s a regular man like you an I, only he is a King (which would I suppose, by definition, not make him _exactly_ like you an I…) who unites does certain things. In fact - **there have been Messiah’s in Jewish History! This is not a debated fact!** The only parts of the Messianic (forgive me, I’m a non-practicing Jew, I haven’t been to temple in forever, so that’s probably incorrect tense) prophesies which require any divine intervention are… # Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8) # There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8) # All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19) However, those are (_theoretically_) possible with science, barring the last one of course. And, given the proper (very liberal) interpretation of the texts, if you can do the first two I’ll give you the last one on good faith. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewishness/479678/76 "2009-01-04T23:48:13Z")
To continue repeating myself: the OP was in the nature of a question, not a statement. The subsequent restatements were not in order to insist that I was right, but in order to clarify what I was wondering about. The answers provided by this thread, even though many of them were offered in apparent hostility, which I have tried to overlook, have obviously improved my understanding of the subject a great deal. Certainly to the extent that I wouldn’t write the same OP today. Thanks to all of you who provided constructive information. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jewishness/479678.md?page=3)