# Jews and Salmon **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 4, 2007, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-salmon/428832 "2007-12-04T21:18:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-salmon/428832/1 "2007-12-04T21:18:47Z")
I was reading the current issue of Bon Apetit and in an article about Hannukah meals, a salmon dish is featured. Smoked salmon (lox) with bagels and cream cheese is a traditional (or should I say stereotypical) Jewish breakfast/brunch dish. I’m curious about how salmon became a part of Jewish cuisine. Is it an American thing or did it come from the old country(ies)? In the U.S., the good stuff comes from the pacific northwest, not a center of Jewish culture. There is Atlantic Salmon, but I was under the impression that it’s habitat was a little further north than New York, up in the Canadian maritime provinces. In Europe, salmon is found in Scotland and Scandinavia, and although the fish goes up rivers to spawn, I don’t think it makes it to the centers of Jewish settlements. Maybe in Russia. Anyway, does anyone know the scoop on this? Why salmon? It can’t be just because it is easy to prepare Kosher. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-salmon/428832/2 "2007-12-04T21:25:47Z")
Lox as we know it appears to have been invented in America: > [@](#): > > Smoked salmon comes in a variety of forms, with the most popular being lox. Lox, first appearing in English in 1941, comes from the Yiddish laks, and originated in New York. It was unknown amongst European Jews, and is still rare in Europe. > > Lox is cured in salt brine, and preferably is made of Pacific salmon. Of course, the most popular menu item is thin slices of lox on a bagel with cream cheese. [http://homecooking.about.com/od/foodhistory/a/salmonhistory.htm](http://homecooking.about.com/od/foodhistory/a/salmonhistory.htm) Not sure why American Jews in NY seized on salmon in the first place to popularize over other types of fish, but for whatever reason, you don’t see other types of salt-brined fish in anywhere near as much quantity in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-salmon/428832/3 "2007-12-04T21:25:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Lox and smoked salmon became Jewish through an accident of migration. When European immigrants came to New York, they brought traditions of smoking and salting fish. But the stuff did not take off until the arrival of Eastern European Jews in the late 19th and early 20th century. > > In the United States, the opening of the first transcontinental railroad in 1869 connected the waters of the Pacific Northwest, which were teeming with wild salmon, with New York fishmongers. Barrels filled with hundreds of pounds of salmon interleaved with salt were transported east. The salt drew water from the flesh of the fish, creating a briny bath that preserved the salmon for up to a year without refrigeration. > > At the same time, the market for lox was exploding. Eastern European immigrants would have appreciated lox both for its price — 9 cents for a quarter-pound in the 1920’s and 30’s — and for its convenience. It was easy to handle — and pareve, making it acceptable with milk or meat. It fast became a staple. > > “Think about it in terms of tenements, the crowded conditions and absence of cooking facilities,” said James Shenton, professor emeritus at Columbia University, whose specialty is immigrant history. “Lox had the advantage of not requiring the effort that would have made life more complicated than it was.” [http://www.acmesmokedfish.com/retail/news/NYTimesPrimer.html](http://www.acmesmokedfish.com/retail/news/NYTimesPrimer.html) [http://www.finesalmon.com/Salmon\_Food/History\_of\_Lox.asp](http://www.finesalmon.com/Salmon_Food/History_of_Lox.asp) > **[Retired Site | PBS](https://www.pbs.org/retired-site/)** > > This Content is No Longer Available ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-salmon/428832/4 "2007-12-04T21:27:49Z")
Much better post by Gfactor. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-salmon/428832/5 "2007-12-04T21:36:56Z")
Last Friday, I went to a play called ‘Jewtopia’. One of the characters said “We like salmon. Nobody is really sure why.” OTOH, my sister assures me that fish is considered meat with regards to kosher laws, but the cite provided by **GFactor** claims it is pareve. It seems to me that I ran into this problem in the thread about whether jello is kosher or not. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-salmon/428832/6 "2007-12-04T21:40:52Z")
> [@adam yax](#): > > my sister assures me that fish is considered meat with regards to kosher laws I keep kosher. She’s wrong. Fish is neither meat nor dairy- it’s parve. Eggs aren’t meat according to the kosher laws either, for the record. They’re also parve. [QUOTE=Lamar Mundane] Anyway, does anyone know the scoop on this? Why salmon? It can’t be just because it is easy to prepare Kosher. [/QUOTE] There is a reason why salmon might be part of a Hanukkah menu that does have to do with keeping kosher, though. Latkes are the essential part of a Hanukkah meal (for Ashkenazim, at least), and a lot of people like sour cream with their latkes. That rules out meat or poultry at a Hanukkah dinner if you keep kosher, because you can’t have either of those with sour cream. Salmon is a popular and widely available kosher fish that a lot of people think of as appropriate for a festive meal. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-salmon/428832/7 "2007-12-04T21:45:36Z")
[QUOTE=adam yax] OTOH, my sister assures me that fish is considered meat with regards to kosher laws, but the cite provided by **GFactor** claims it is pareve. It seems to me that I ran into this problem in the thread about whether jello is kosher or not. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > Fish, eggs, fruits, vegetables and grains can be eaten with either meat or dairy. (According to some views, fish may not be eaten with meat). > **[Kashrut: Jewish Dietary Laws - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)](https://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm)** > > Learn about the Jewish dietary laws of kashrut (kosher), why we observe these laws, the various foods and combinations that are forbidden, and the certification of kosher foods. > [@](#): > > For example, Jell-O brand gelatin puts a K on its product, even though every reliable Orthodox authority agrees that Jell-O is not kosher. [Kashrut: Jewish Dietary Laws - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)](http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm) [Dry Bones and Jell-O™ « Ask The Rabbi « Ohr Somayach](http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/127/Q1/) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-salmon/428832/8 "2007-12-04T23:47:50Z")
[QUOTE=toadspittle] Not sure why American Jews in NY seized on salmon in the first place to popularize over other types of fish, but for whatever reason, you don’t see other types of salt-brined fish in anywhere near as much quantity in the US. [/QUOTE] When I was a kid when we got appetizing, we got lox and also [sable](http://www.foodreference.com/html/artsmokedfish.html) , plus whitefish. Sable and whitefish seem to be pretty rare outside of New York, but the deli in the Trump Plaza in Atlantic City has a mean whitefish salad. (And good pastrami.) Whitefish is kind of a pain to eat, and I guess smoked salmon has more general appeal. I had some really good smoked salmon in the Netherlands. No bagels though. BTW, among my crowd Nova lox (made from Atlantic salmon) is much preferred to lox made from Pacific Northwest salmon. I think I can tell the difference, and buy Nova wherever possible. ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-salmon/428832/9 "2007-12-05T00:24:41Z")
Now I’m hungry ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-salmon/428832/10 "2007-12-05T02:10:53Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] When I was a kid when we got appetizing, we got lox and also [sable](http://www.foodreference.com/html/artsmokedfish.html) , plus whitefish. Sable and whitefish seem to be pretty rare outside of New York, but the deli in the Trump Plaza in Atlantic City has a mean whitefish salad. (And good pastrami.) Whitefish is kind of a pain to eat, and I guess smoked salmon has more general appeal. I had some really good smoked salmon in the Netherlands. No bagels though. BTW, among my crowd Nova lox (made from Atlantic salmon) is much preferred to lox made from Pacific Northwest salmon. I think I can tell the difference, and buy Nova wherever possible. [/QUOTE] Both sable and whitefish (not to mention lox) were also quite common in Philly. But pastrami never made the trip (corn beef did). And I find regular lox much more flavorful than Nova (which, under the name smoked salmon or saumon fume) is the only thing known here in Montreal. When I am in NY, I get real lox, although I probably shouldn’t on account of the salt. ---
**Author:** ![Anchuldigs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Anchuldigs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anchuldigs)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-salmon/428832/11 "2007-12-05T02:33:59Z")
fish is pareve. However, most Sephardic jews do not eat fish with dairy. Therefore, no lox and cream-cheese bagels for Sphardim. Many Jews also refrain from eating fish with meat. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-salmon/428832/12 "2007-12-05T03:17:41Z")
Just as an informational point, there are multiple ads in the Lincoln, Nebraska paper from 1920 selling “Salmon(lox)” in and around 1920. So ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2007, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-salmon/428832/13 "2007-12-05T05:16:11Z")
Thanks for the answers to that out-of-left-field question. I am certain to be a hit at parties now, armed with the answer. As a reward, here are some pictures I saw today. > **[Let's all eat trafe for Chanukah!](https://nancykayshapiro.livejournal.com/35633.html?thread=54321)** > > A holiday scene: The Place: Balducci's , today. Personae: Me, shopping for low-carb food. Action: I'm sort of staring at the meat display, lots of salamis and sausages, and then various hams. And the hams' price signs have all been tagged with... And I think samclem got murdered midpost.