# Jews and the missionary position **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 16, 2001, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-missionary-position/62183 "2001-04-16T18:22:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2001, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-missionary-position/62183/1 "2001-04-16T18:22:14Z")
A typical congregation has several positions- Rabbi, usher, secretary, president, etc., but there are not, as far as I know, open positions for missionaries. Why not? Why is there little to no proselytizing in the Jewish religion? Biblical/ Talmudic prohibitions? Tradition? If it is tradition/ attitude towards Gentiles, is there a GD in the making? (If it has been covered there, please post a link.) Thanks! Rhythmdvl ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2001, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-missionary-position/62183/2 "2001-04-16T18:39:22Z")
Lovely thread title. I don’t know the underlying reason as to why Jews do not go out canvassing for Judaism. But I know that one of the beliefs is that converts must come to us. That belief is so strong, in fact, that any potential converts will be denied twice after requesting to become Jewish, before being admitted on the third time. So, really, it wouldn’t do much good for missionaries to go out looking for new blood only to turn around and deny them entrance once they ask. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2001, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-missionary-position/62183/3 "2001-04-16T19:16:47Z")
> [@](#): > > …one of the beliefs is that converts must come to us. That belief is so strong, in fact, that any potential converts will be denied twice after requesting to become Jewish, before being admitted on the third time. Which goes back to the OP. Why make it so hard to convert? Is there a difference between a convert and a born-into (for lack of a better work) Jew? What about two generations down the line? If not, wouldn’t larger numbers have helped over the millennia? Does ‘Chosen People’ mean just you and your direct descendants, no outsiders please? How does that account for Ethiopian Jews, who IIRC were/ are considered Jewish enough for entry/ residence in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Knighted\_Vorpal\_Sword](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ac91a4/32.png) [@Knighted\_Vorpal\_Sword](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knighted_Vorpal_Sword)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2001, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-missionary-position/62183/4 "2001-04-16T19:54:02Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Rhythmdvl \* \*\* > [@](#): > > Why make it so hard to convert? \*\* Because there are a lot of rules to follow, and it’s not a good thing to have someone convert and not follow all the rules. That’s why there are many years of study before some one can convert according to halacha (Jewish law). \*\* > [@](#): > > Is there a difference between a convert and a born-into (for lack of a better work) Jew? \*\* No. \*\* > [@](#): > > Does ‘Chosen People’ mean just you and your direct descendants, no outsiders please? \*\* No. \*\* > [@](#): > > How does that account for Ethiopian Jews, who IIRC were/ are considered Jewish enough for entry/ residence in Israel. \*\* There was great debate among the Torah sages about the status of Ethiopian Jews, and it caused much heartache among members of the Ethiopian community. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2001, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-missionary-position/62183/5 "2001-04-16T19:59:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rhythmdvl \* > \*\* > > A typical congregation has several positions- Rabbi, usher, secretary, president, etc., but there are not, as far as I know, open positions for missionaries. Why not? Why is there little to no proselytizing in the Jewish religion? Biblical/ Talmudic prohibitions? Tradition? If it is tradition/ attitude towards Gentiles, is there a GD in the making? (If it has been covered there, please post a link.) > > Thanks! > > Rhythmdvl > > \*\* Why do we not have missionaries? We don’t need 'em! In a religion, such as Christianity, for example, the general belief is (and I realize that there are some branches that don’t believe this) that if you don’t belong, you’re going to Hell. As such, they attempt to “save” as many people as possible through conversion. Judaism, OTOH, does not require one to be a Jew to merit the afterlife. In fact, it is easier for a non-Jew to merit the afterlife than a Jew. The reason for this is that a Jew is required to keep 613 commandments, whereas non-Jews are only required to keep seven. As such, it is advantageous for non-Jews _not_ to convert. In fact, that is the reason we discourage conversion. If a person wants to become a Jew, they’d better be sure that they are ready to commit to a major lifestyle change in keeping the commandments. If they convert and then choose not to keep the _mitzvos_ (commandments), they are worse off than if they didn’t convert to begin with. Therefore, we discourage all potential converts to make sure that they _really_ want to convert. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2001, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-missionary-position/62183/6 "2001-04-16T19:59:20Z")
Sheesh, what a thread title. The reason Jews don’t actively proselytize is because we don’t believe that to go to heaven, you must be Jewish. We believe that G-d gave non-Jews a set of seven basic responsibilities (better known as the seven Noahide laws, since we believe all mankind is descended from Noah) which, if they execute them properly, gets them into heaven just fine. Judaism is a much more demanding set of responsibilities (613 of them), and to someone not born Jewish (and therefore already bound by these obligations) it would be much easier to get into heaven as a good non-Jew than as a not-so-good Jew. So we’d be doing no one any big favors by missionizing for Jewish converts. > [@](#): > > Why make it so hard to convert? Potential converts are, as Enderw24 said, denied twice, in order that their determination and purity of intent in converting be ascertained. Converts must know just what they’re subjecting themselves and their descendants to. Judaism is serious business, no dilettantes need apply. > [@](#): > > there a difference between a convert and a born-into (for lack of a better work) Jew? What about two generations down the line? Once someone has converted, there is no difference between him and a born Jew, except that a female convert is not allowed (by Rabbinic decree) to marry a Kohen (priest, for lack of a better translation). That restriction does not carry over to the next generation. > [@](#): > > If not, wouldn’t larger numbers have helped over the millennia? Not necessarily. Heck, few though we are, we tend to, incredibly, get blamed for many of the world’s problems. If there were more of us, we’d probably have gotten blamed for even more! > [@](#): > > Does ‘Chosen People’ mean just you and your direct descendants, no outsiders please? Obviously not, because there is a mechanism for conversion. It means that we were chosen to bear these responsibilities, but others who are sincere about taking them on as well may do so. > [@](#): > > How does that account for Ethiopian Jews, who IIRC were/ are considered Jewish enough for entry/ residence in Israel. They are not converts; they are a group of Jews who had been isolated in Ethiopia for centuries but who have maintained their distinct identity while there. ---
**Author:** ![DaveRaver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daveraver/32/1078_2.png) [@DaveRaver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaveRaver)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2001, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-missionary-position/62183/7 "2001-04-17T01:44:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > > Judaism, OTOH, does not require one to be a Jew to merit the afterlife. In fact, it is easier for a non-Jew to merit the afterlife than a Jew. The reason for this is that a Jew is required to keep 613 commandments, whereas non-Jews are only required to keep seven. As such, it is advantageous for non-Jews _not_ to convert. > > Zev Steinhardt \*\* What is all this about an afterlife? The Torah does not specify that there is an afterlife, nor are the commandments followed in order to obtain a reward after death. If I am wrong, show me the exact Torah passage which mentions it. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2001, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-missionary-position/62183/8 "2001-04-17T02:54:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DaveRaver \* > [B If I am wrong, show me the exact Torah passage which mentions it. \*\* Deuteronomy, The Lost Chapters, 6:9-7:12 > [@](#): > > And having led a life filled with the fruits of his labors, Abraham being of extreme age especially considering his cholesterol laid down and was transported unto Teaneck, New Jersey. Rumored for eons as the Thereafter of the Hereafter, Teaneck teems with the souls who are In Transit. Sometimes taking the bus, but if a few friends are along, sharing carfare. . Seek, and you shall find. 😃 Okay, seriously? I’m no Talmudic scholar because I got bounced out of Yeshiva for sneaking Goldenberg’s Peanut Chews into shul. Still, I cannot think of ever having heard of a Torah passage that actually describes an afterlife. Surely none of the Ten Commandments proscribe activities that will guarantee one entrance into an afterlife. Wiseacre comments of mine aside, I’m mighty curious too. Show, show, show us the quote. Cartooniverse ( Otherwise knows as " the Ignorant Son" around the Seder Table :eyeroll: ) ---
**Author:** ![Ell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47774/32.png) [@Ell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ell)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2001, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-missionary-position/62183/9 "2001-04-17T03:04:51Z")
Good article: [So you wanna convert to judaism](http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/syws/judaism/judaism.html) ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2001, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-missionary-position/62183/10 "2001-04-17T03:16:20Z")
I thought the Jewish afterlife was Boca Raton, Florida. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Ring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ring)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2001, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-missionary-position/62183/11 "2001-04-17T03:24:48Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt_ > > Judaism, OTOH, does not require one to be a Jew to merit the afterlife. In fact, it is easier for a non-Jew to merit the afterlife than a Jew. The reason for this is that a Jew is required to keep 613 commandments, whereas non-Jews are only required to keep seven. As such, it is advantageous for non-Jews not to convert. > > ``` > Zev Steinhardt > > ``` Ok, so are Jews stupid then or what? If the ultimate is to get to heaven then why don’t ya’ll convert to Christianity or something? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2001, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-missionary-position/62183/12 "2001-04-17T04:06:31Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Ring \* \*\* > [@](#): > > Ok, so are Jews stupid then or what? If the ultimate is to get to heaven then why don’t ya’ll convert to Christianity or something? \*\* Silly rabbit, conversion’s for Gentiles… Seriously, however, Judaism does not recognize conversion out of Judaism. That’s another reason why we discourage potential converts until they demonstrate that they are sure of their decision… it’s a one-way trip. Putting that aside, however, we still believe that following the rules of the Torah is the proper way to live one’s life. It’s not for everyone, but it is still the proper way. Lastly, unlike Christianity, the main goal of Judaism is not the afterlife, but this world. That’s why **DaveRaver** , there is little mention of the afterlife in the Torah. However, although there are no direct references, there are several indirect ones. My personal favorite is the expression that is used when certain people died in the Torah. That expression is “and he was gathered unto his people.” The expression is used with regard to Abraham’s death (Genesis 25:9). It does not refer to a physical gathering, because Abraham was not buried with his ancestors. Moses’ and Aaron’s deaths are described with the same expression (“gathered unto his people” - Deuteronomy 32:50). However, again, it does not refer to a physical gathering, because they were both buried seperately. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2001, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-missionary-position/62183/13 "2001-04-17T12:19:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > **Judaism, OTOH, does not require one to be a Jew to merit the afterlife. In fact, it is easier for a non-Jew to merit the afterlife than a Jew. The reason for this is that a Jew is required to keep 613 commandments, whereas non-Jews are only required to keep seven. As such, it is advantageous for non-Jews _not_ to convert.** Only 7? Which 3 (of the ominous 10) don’t we have to keep? :D:D ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2001, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-missionary-position/62183/14 "2001-04-17T12:33:48Z")
\<\< If the ultimate is to get to heaven then why don’t ya’ll convert to Christianity or something? \>\> While most of the posters here have referred to the Jewish mitzvot (commandments) as the “way to get to heaven”, I beg to differ. Christianity is focused on “getting to heaven.” Judaism is focused on “doing what is right here on earth.” References in the Old Testament to an afterlife are few and obscure (or poetic), and tend to refer to a Messianic Age on earth rather than a heaven. The obligations of Judaism are for partnering with God to heal the world, THIS world, not for getting heavenly reward. Judaism (and the “chosen” concept) has to do with choosing to take on these obligations. A person who came to a rabbi seeking conversion who said they wanted to “save their soul” and “get to heaven” would probably be turned away (at least by Orthodox and Conservative rabbis), more than just three times. That’s the wrong motivation altogether. It should also be noted that the conversion process is more difficult for Orthodox Judaism than for Reform Judiasm. Reform Judaism is more open to conversion, especially among mixed-faith couples. Rhythm’s original question: \<\< A typical congregation has several positions- Rabbi, usher, secretary, president, etc., but there are not, as far as I know, open positions for missionaries. \>\> Let me turn the question back at you: do most Christian churches have open positions for “missionaries”? I understand that many/most Christian faiths have missionaries, but is that an individual church position, right up there with pastor, deacon, and altar boy, in a typical congregation? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2001, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-missionary-position/62183/15 "2001-04-17T12:49:04Z")
CK: > [@](#): > > Christianity is focused on “getting to heaven.” Judaism is focused on “doing what is right here on earth.” While it is true that some who call themselves “Christian” maintain such a focus, the Lord Himself had quite a different take: > [@](#): > > Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you.” — Luke 17:20-21 ---
**Author:** ![Akatsukami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea666f/32.png) [@Akatsukami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akatsukami)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2001, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-missionary-position/62183/16 "2001-04-17T13:33:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AWB \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > > **Judaism, OTOH, does not require one to be a Jew to merit the afterlife. In fact, it is easier for a non-Jew to merit the afterlife than a Jew. The reason for this is that a Jew is required to keep 613 commandments, whereas non-Jews are only required to keep seven. As such, it is advantageous for non-Jews _not_ to convert.** > > Only 7? Which 3 (of the ominous 10) don’t we have to keep? :D:D \*\* [A list of the seven Noa©hide commandments](http://www.torah.org/learning/lifeline/5755/noach.html?print=1). Note that they can’t be easily mapped onto the Decalogue (without a some special pleading), but then those ten commandments aren’t viewed as special compared to the rest of the Halakhah, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2001, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-missionary-position/62183/17 "2001-04-17T15:15:27Z")
DaveRaver: > [@](#): > > What is all this about an afterlife? The Torah does not specify that there is an afterlife, nor are the commandments followed in order to obtain a reward after death. If I am wrong, show me the exact Torah passage which mentions it. In addition to the “hints” that Zev has mentioned, there is at least one place in the Jewish Scriptures where it is explicit that the soul continues to exist after death in some other realm. This is in I Samuel 28, where Saul has the woman from Endor summon up the spirit of the prophet Samuel. Ring: > [@](#): > > Ok, so are Jews stupid then or what? If the ultimate is to get to heaven then why don’t ya’ll convert to Christianity or something? Well, for one thing, we believe it’s false. For another, we have a special obligation to G-d due to the covenant he made with our forefathers at Sinai, and an obligation can’t just be thrown away by the obligee. And finally, just because we believe that non-Jews go to heaven doesn’t mean we don’t think Jews have more fun there. Merely that not being a JEw isn’t an automatic condemnation to Hell. zev: > [@](#): > > Lastly, unlike Christianity, the main goal of Judaism is not the afterlife, but this world. I beg to differ, Zev. Doesn’t it say in Pirkei Avos, “This world is like the antechamber, and the World to Come is like the banquet room; you prepare yourself in the antechamber, and then you can eat in the banquet room”? Seems to me like Traditional teaching is that the afterlife is indeed the primary purpose, and this world is merely a means to achieving that end. Although, admittedly, we are admonished to do the commandments not for the sake of the future reward, but merely for the sake of following the word of G-d. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2001, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-missionary-position/62183/18 "2001-04-17T15:43:19Z")
Just a small complement to Chaim’s posts here: You’re not supposed to obey God’s commandments because of some promised reward; you’re supposed to obey because god told you to. To use a military analogy - a bad soldier follows orders because if he doesn’t, he’ll be punished.l A _good_ soldier follows orders out of loyalty, discipline and his own ideals. He follows orders because he want’s to, not because he expects some reward. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2001, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-missionary-position/62183/19 "2001-04-17T15:51:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cmkeller \* > \*\* > In addition to the “hints” that Zev has mentioned, there is at least one place in the Jewish Scriptures where it is explicit that the soul continues to exist after death in some other realm. This is in I Samuel 28, where Saul has the woman from Endor summon up the spirit of the prophet Samuel. \*\* D’oh! I can’t believe that I missed that! > [@](#): > > \*\* > I beg to differ, Zev. Doesn’t it say in Pirkei Avos, “This world is like the antechamber, and the World to Come is like the banquet room; you prepare yourself in the antechamber, and then you can eat in the banquet room”? Seems to me like Traditional teaching is that the afterlife is indeed the primary purpose, and this world is merely a means to achieving that end. > > Although, admittedly, we are admonished to do the commandments not for the sake of the future reward, but merely for the sake of following the word of G-d. > > Chaim Mattis Keller \*\* True. However, I doubt that when most people shake lulav, eat Matzah, etc., they are doing so primarily for the _s’char olam habah_ they will receive. They are primarily doing it because God commanded them to do so. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Ring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Ring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ring)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2001, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-missionary-position/62183/20 "2001-04-17T16:02:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Converts must know just what they’re subjecting themselves and their descendants to. Judaism is serious business, no dilettantes need apply. Wait a minute, this directly conflicts with my dim remembrance of what another poster wrote. I believe she described how a bunch of Acidic Jews drove around New York in a Matzo van (or something) trying to convert unsuspecting Big Applians. (BTW I’m not Jewish) Also, if there’s no Heaven, then where’s the payoff for following all these rules? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-missionary-position/62183.md?page=2)