Jews and the missionary position

[zev_steinhardt]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ring *
**

Wait a minute, this directly conflicts with my dim remembrance of what another poster wrote. I believe she described how a bunch of Acidic Jews drove around New York in a Matzo van (or something) trying to convert unsuspecting Big Applians.

(BTW I’m not Jewish)

**

The Hasidic (not acidic!) Jews you heard about are looking for non-religious Jews, seeking to get them to observe more of the mitzvos. They do not go about seeking to convert non-Jews to Judaism.

**
Also, if there’s no Heaven, then where’s the payoff for following all these rules?
**

Who says there’s no heaven?

Judaism certainly believes in a Heaven and a Hell. However, as mentioned earlier, they are not the entire focus of the religion. We do not have a need to “save” everyone from Hell, because we don’t believe that people go to Hell for simply not being Jewish.

Zev Steinhardt

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by zev_steinhardt *
**
True. However, I doubt that when most people shake lulav, eat Matzah, etc., they are doing so primarily for the s’char olam habah they will receive.
Zev Steinhardt **

Correction:

That should read … they are not doing so primarily…

Zev Steinhardt

[screech-owl]

*Originally posted by Ring *
Wait a minute, this directly conflicts with my dim remembrance of what another poster wrote. I believe she described how a bunch of Acidic Jews drove around New York in a Matzo van (or something) trying to convert unsuspecting Big Applians.

So you can refresh your memory: “Hello, are you Jewish?” by Eve.

[sub]‘Acidic Jews’ and ‘Matzo van’ - criminey, nothing personal, but I now have the hiccups from laughing, thank you very much.[/sub]

[cmkeller]

Zev & Alessan - I mentioned that. Note the last sentence of my previous post. Nonetheless, to say, as Zev did (emphasis mine)

Lastly, unlike Christianity, the main goal of Judaism is not the afterlife, but this world.

is, from my understanding of Pirkei Avos, wrong, and that’s the point I was trying to address.

Chaim Mattis Keller

[xash]

and i thought i’d learn some secret sacred passed down through centuries cool new way to do the thing

this guy ever tried joining the new york times or something ? with headlines like these man he’ll get my whole city readin’

[Chronos]

First of all, no Christian church that I know of, and certainly not Catholics, has an official position “missionary”. Many missionaries are monks or members of one of the “lay orders”, but it’s not a requirement, and not all such folks become missionaries.

And I hate to tell you, xash, but the Missionary Position isn’t a “cool new way to do the thing”… All it means is woman on her back, man on top, face-to-face, about the closest thing you could have to a boring position.

[Akatsukami]

Ring wrote:

Wait a minute, this directly conflicts with my dim remembrance of what another poster wrote. I believe she described how a bunch of Acidic Jews drove around New York in a Matzo van (or something) trying to convert unsuspecting Big Applians.

I feel a joke coming on about Misnagdim being bitter, but for the moment I shall refrain…

[Ring]

I feel a joke coming on about Misnagdim being bitter, but for the moment I shall refrain…

Having never seen this word before the only thing I could surmise was that Miss Nagdim was Mr. Nagdim’s daughter. But then I found this…

The opponents of Hasidism came to be known as “Misnagdim” (Hebrew for “opponents.”

And this……

So rav yismael ben harav gershon said in the name of the gedola hador who quoted rabbai dooday what is the proper amount of salt one should use to flavor chicken soup on a hot holy shabbat rather than on a cold holy shabbat? … No you silly misnagdim, one is not aloud to even dream of partaking soup on a shabbat lunch meal which happens to be hot. One should be eating the gefiltafish. (HAHAHA if you don’t get it, then say the joke over to your rebbi 10 times fast.) thank you and shabbat shalom.

Verily, I can say in all truth that “I don’t get it”

‘Acidic Jews’ and ‘Matzo van’ - criminey, nothing personal, but I now have the hiccups from laughing, thank you very much.

Thanks S. Owl, I was beginning to worry that everyone just thought I was stupid.

[DaveRaver]

*Originally posted by zev_steinhardt *
Who says there’s no heaven?

Judaism certainly believes in a Heaven and a Hell.

Zev Steinhardt **

Again, Zev, I ask you to please provide cites from the Torah. Although the Torah has frequent references to Heaven, it is mentioned in the context of being a realm of G-d, not necessarily a place where our souls go when we die, a la Christianity. As far as Hell, I don’t recall that EVER mentioned in the Torah.

[C_K_Dexter_Haven]

Let’s clear up some misconceptions here.

Zev and Cmkeller are representing the beliefs/dogma of Orthodox Judaism. That is not all of Judaism, any more than Catholicism is all of Christianity. It is therefore not surprising that we will disagree on some points (me being Conservative). Bear in mind that if you asked a question of Christians, you would get significant differences from Greek Orthodox, Catholic, Lutherans, and Amish. Judaism has been around longer, has been more dispersed, and contemporary Judaism is not unified.

Second, there is no single fixed set of beliefs for all of contemporary Judaism; there are fixed practices, behaviours, ethics, etc., but not fixed beliefs. And the beliefs are NOT of primary importance, the practices are of primary importance. You will find some rabbinic authorities who, of course, disagree with this statement and cite, inter alia, Maimonedes’ famous thirteen principles of the Jewish faith, etc etc. Zev and Cmkeller will probably disagree with me, as well. I don’t want to get into that – let’s leave it that Maimonedes interpertations are only 800 years old, a drop in the bucket in a 3,500 year religion. Even the practices, of course, have different interpretations in the different branches of Judaism, and for different congregations/families/ethnicities within those branches.

Third, principles of Judaism are first derived from the Torah, the first five books of the Bible. There are then secondary books of the Bible, such as Kings and Judges and Isaiah, etc. which expand the basics. There are then commentaries on the Bible, such as Mishnah and Talmud and all. Thus, DaveR, there need not be a direct cite from Torah for something to be a belief of mainstream Judaism. It can be derived from Prophets, from Talmud, etc.

My own take: The Torah posits a world where good is rewarded and evil is punished, here and now. As time went on and it became clear that this world doesn’t work that way, the prophets speak of a future world in which Justice is triumphant, since it is unthinkable that injustice could coexist with a just God. Thus, the belief in an after-world became pretty important, where good is rewarded and evil is punished. Many Jewish authorities however do not assign this to a “heaven” and “hell” in a Christian sense, but to a coming future Messianic era here on earth.

Thus, a belief in some sort of “afterworld” is necessary to be compatible with belief in a just God, but – my main point so many posts ago – that is not the PRIMARY reason for being Jewish. (Please, Zev and Chaim, I am not trying to say that such belief is unimportant, only that it is not the highest priority.)

The PRIMARY reason for being Christian is to achieve personal salvation. That is NOT the PRIMARY reason for being Jewish. The primary reason for being Jewish is that we have a covenantal agreement (think: contract) with God, it is an obligation, and we do not know the reasons for it (although there is considerable rabbinic speculation, God gives only vague reasons about being His holy people.)

I think Chaim said: << For another, we have a special obligation to G-d due to the covenant he made with our forefathers at Sinai, and an obligation can’t just be thrown away by the obligee. >>

I would add, nor can the obligation be thrown away by the obligor. God is bound by the Covenant as much as we are, which is why we reject the idea of the Covenant being replaced by belief in Jesus.

[Edited by C K Dexter Haven on 04-18-2001 at 08:26 AM]

[cmkeller]

CKDextHavn:

Before I answer your most recent post, I want to make a point of saying, I’m only addressing our differences of opinion regarding historical fact…not regarding the beliefs themselves. I have no intention of turning this into a Great Debate.

Judaism has been around longer, has been more dispersed, and contemporary Judaism is not unified.

CK, while all three of these statements are indeed true, the former two are not the cause of the last. Contemporary non-Orthodox Judaism didn’t exist until Germany in 1820. And it was in no way an outgrowth of earlier non-Orthodox movements such as the Karaites or the Saduccees.

let’s leave it that Maimonedes interpertations are only 800 years old, a drop in the bucket in a 3,500 year religion.

Maimonides’s compilation and formulation is only 800 years old. However, everything he said in that is based directly - not interpretatively - on quotes from the Talmud, the portion of Sanhedrin. The only thing he did was take the negative forms and re-word them positively, e.g., the Talmud says “One who does not believe in he resurrection of the dead is a heretic and has no share in the World to Come,” and Maimonides re-worded that as “One of the fundamental beliefs of Judaism is in resurrection of the dead.” So that backs up the age of these beliefs another 800 years, to the compilation of the Talmud. And, in fact, most of the statements he re-words are not from the Gemara, the later part of the Talmud, but directly from the Mishnah, which was compiled yet another 250 years prior.

Going back further, to the Biblical verses that the Mishnah derives the beliefs from, of course, is a matter of interpretation, so I won’t press the point, however, while Maimonides’ specific wording is only 800 years old, the things he says predate him by more than a millennium.

Third, principles of Judaism are first derived from the Torah, the first five books of the Bible. There are then secondary books of the Bible, such as Kings and Judges and Isaiah, etc. which expand the basics.

While laws are only derived from the Five Books of Moses, underlying principles can very much be derived from the Prophets and Writings. Especially important to this particular discussion is the fact that the existence of an afterlife is explicitly stated in Samuel, as I mentioned earlier.

My own take: The Torah posits a world where good is rewarded and evil is punished, here and now. As time went on and it became clear that this world doesn’t work that way, the prophets speak of a future world in which Justice is triumphant, since it is unthinkable that injustice could coexist with a just God.

<snip>

Thus, a belief in some sort of “afterworld” is necessary to be compatible with belief in a just God

Here’s where the Biblically factual existence of an afterlife is important to note, CK. Since the Bible is clear (from Samuel) on the soul’s continued existence after death, it makes perfect sense (from the believer’s perspective) to posit that it is in that realm where ultimate justice is meted out. However, the need to reconcile G-d’s justice with the obvious injustice of this world is not the root of the (Orthodox, at least)Jewish belief in an afterlife. Samuel (and other, less direct references in other Biblical books) is the root of that, and the reconciliation is the root only of the belief that that is where ultumate justice is administered.

Chaim Mattis Keller