# Jews and the slave trade
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-slave-trade/502649
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 11, 2009, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-slave-trade/502649 "2009-07-11T04:46:49Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-slave-trade/502649/41 "2009-07-13T16:02:11Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#):
>
> A fascinating claim. Let’s see what happens when we look at it.
> Harvard, founded 1636.
> Slavery legalized in Massachusetts, 1642.
> Harvard was established by the Colony of Massachusetts Bay to train Puritan ministers, and named after a minister who donated his library and half his estate to it on his death.
> It remained that way until, at the earliest, 1708.
>
> Might I gently ask where you get your assertion from, because it seems a bit dubious to me. Are you referring to the law school, perhaps? Royall and all that, circa 1785? It seems a bit odd to claim the school itself is founded on something that happened over a hundred years after it was founded.
I may have been thinking about Brown.
[http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=515322](http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=515322)
But Harvard does seem to have benefitted from slave wnership and the slave trade. (see Royall and Cabot).
[http://www.thecrimson.com/printerfriendly.aspx?ref=523257](http://www.thecrimson.com/printerfriendly.aspx?ref=523257)
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-slave-trade/502649/42 "2009-07-13T16:02:40Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#):
>
> For most of their history Jews who didn’t want to starve had two options, usury and trading.
Well, they could also be artisans – goldsmiths, etc. – and professionals – not lawyers, but doctors for sure. But generally the point holds: At most times and places in Medieval Europe, Jews were not allowed to own land, not even as serfs or tenants, because there was no clear distinction between owning land and ruling it, and a tenant sometimes had subtenants, and a Jewish landowner therefore might conceivably exercise authority over Christians – unacceptable to the thinking of the time. So they were left with supporting themselves by moneylending (which the Church did not allow Christians to do), commerce, and crafts.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-slave-trade/502649/43 "2009-07-13T16:04:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> So they were left with supporting themselves by moneylending (which the Church did not allow Christians to do), commerce, and crafts.
Most of the crafts were under the control of the guilds, and Jews couldn’t join guilds.
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### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-slave-trade/502649/44 "2009-07-13T16:19:01Z")
Except the Freemasons, which is [del]how we came to rule the world[/del] unimportant.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-slave-trade/502649/45 "2009-07-13T17:07:17Z")
Finn, ixnay on the eemasonfray.
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-slave-trade/502649/46 "2009-07-13T17:12:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#):
>
> That’s right, Harvard was founded by slave trading money.
You misspelled “Brown”.
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### Author:  [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-slave-trade/502649/47 "2009-07-13T17:14:06Z")
Of course Harvard benefited from the slave trade. The Triangle Trade was very important to the US as a whole. Since slaves were part of it, then the US is founded, in significant parts, on the trading of slaves. And any family that goes back that far and had dealings in trade probably had their fingers involved somewhere. (But only probably and not certainly. Americans are, as a rule, stubborn about ideology, and a number of ideologies at the time were very anti-slavery.)
So… about them jews and the slavery… anything?
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-slave-trade/502649/48 "2009-07-13T17:45:39Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#):
>
> So… about them jews and the slavery… anything?
Not so much in the US, but they were major participants in the slave trade in Egypt.
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### Author:  [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-slave-trade/502649/49 "2009-07-13T17:52:59Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#):
>
> Of course Harvard benefited from the slave trade. The Triangle Trade was very important to the US as a whole. Since slaves were part of it, then the US is founded, in significant parts, on the trading of slaves. And any family that goes back that far and had dealings in trade probably had their fingers involved somewhere. (But only probably and not certainly. Americans are, as a rule, stubborn about ideology, and a number of ideologies at the time were very anti-slavery.)
>
> So… about them jews and the slavery… anything?
I think this thread got jacked because the OP’s original issue was pretty much resolved by the fourth or fifth response. i.e. aside from Joseph’s brothers selling him into slavery, there is nothing particularly jewish about slavetrading.
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### Author:  [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-slave-trade/502649/50 "2009-07-13T18:32:44Z")
I’m surprised that no one has brought up the allegation that Jews were/are the mainstay of _white slavery_ (I believe this was big on the anti-Semite hit parade a century or so ago).
It’s a good thing it got nipped in the bud, otherwise we’d be seeing Hasidics running around in purple outfits and _really_ flashy hats.
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### Author:  [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-slave-trade/502649/51 "2009-07-13T19:16:08Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#):
>
> I’m surprised that no one has brought up the allegation that Jews were/are the mainstay of _white slavery_ (I believe this was big on the anti-Semite hit parade a century or so ago).
>
> It’s a good thing it got nipped in the bud, otherwise we’d be seeing Hasidics running around in purple outfits and _really_ flashy hats.
Well - I know it is not what you are referring to, but it is often forgotten these days that “African slavery” was not a one-way street. There there was also the North African “White Slave Trade”, where the various North African statelets made a living from kidnapping Europeans and enslaving them (the “Barbary corsairs”), and in many cases selling them back to their relations. Some Jews were involved in the “selling 'em back to their relations” part of the business, as they could move between the N. African and European worlds with money.
It is surprising to remember that Africans (though admittedly not sub-Saharan Africans!) enslaved over a million Europeans at more or less the same time as Europeans were enslaving millions of Africans. Even the new United States paid tribute to the African slavers, for a time (and developed a fleet for the express purpose of changing this situation).
> **[Barbary slave trade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_Slave_Trade)**
>
> The Barbary slave trade involved the capture of Europeans and selling them at slave markets in the largely independent Ottoman Barbary states of North Africa. Europeans were captured by Barbary corsairs in slave raids on ships and by raids on coastal towns from Italy to Ireland, coasts of Spain and Portugal, as far north as Iceland and into the Eastern Mediterranean.
> The Ottoman Eastern Mediterranean was the scene of intense piracy. As late as the 18th century, piracy continued to be a "consiste...
Though “slave redemption” may be a better way of describing some Jews’ roles in this business.
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### Author:  [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-slave-trade/502649/52 "2009-07-14T00:14:12Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> If you are going to pick on Teh Jooz, there are far more recent crimes to accuse them of, if the history of their most representative organisation is anything to go by\*.
>
> - Mossad, in case you are wondering. And if I die in an accident, it wasn’t really one, I’ve just pissed off the wrong jew.
Wait, what? The Mossad is ‘their most representative organisation’? Is this true? I don’t know any American Jews who feel the Mossad ‘represents’ them, but perhaps non-Jews feel differently and I’m just in the dark.
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#):
>
> Not so much in the US, but they were major participants in the slave trade in Egypt.
Heh. _A leben ahf dein kepele_!
- ‘A long life on your head’. Or, idiomatically: ‘well said’.
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### Author:  [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-slave-trade/502649/53 "2009-07-14T02:10:55Z")
So, the assumption here is that the reason there weren’t more Jews involved in the slave trade is that they refused on moral grounds? Not that I’m refuting it, I’m just curious. It would be refreshing if true.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-slave-trade/502649/54 "2009-07-14T04:00:25Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#):
>
> So, the assumption here is that the reason there weren’t more Jews involved in the slave trade is that they refused on moral grounds? Not that I’m refuting it, I’m just curious. It would be refreshing if true.
No, I think the reason there weren’t more Jews involved in the slave trade was because, by and large, there weren’t many Jews in a position to get involved in it.
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### Author:  [@sjc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sjc)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2009, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-slave-trade/502649/55 "2009-07-14T04:56:07Z")
> [@choie](#):
>
> Wait, what? The Mossad is ‘their most representative organisation’? Is this true? I don’t know any American Jews who feel the Mossad ‘represents’ them, but perhaps non-Jews feel differently and I’m just in the dark.
I’m a goy and that confused me too.
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### Author:  [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-slave-trade/502649/56 "2009-07-14T20:06:30Z")
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> What exactly is it that you imagine \*the \*Mossad has done?
Every\* crime in the alphabet, all in the name of the Jewish state, unless you want me to be specific?
> [@sjc](#):
>
> I’m a goy and that confused me too.
Are you saying you don’t think they are the most influential organisation in Israel, and that they have no relevance to the rest of the jews in the world?
- Okay, slight hyperbole. I meant _almost_.
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### Author:  [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-slave-trade/502649/57 "2009-07-14T20:11:18Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> Every\* crime in the alphabet, all in the name of the Jewish state, unless you want me to be specific?
So basically the same as most other intelligence agencies, you mean?
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### Author:  [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-slave-trade/502649/58 "2009-07-14T20:11:59Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> Every crime in the alphabet, all in the name of the Jewish state, unless you want me to be specific?
>
> Are you saying you don’t think they are the most influential organisation in Israel, and that they have no relevance to the rest of the jews in the world?
Yup, world Jewery is defined by the Mossad, who have committed every crime in the alphabet. You got that right.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I have some Christian babies I wish to bake in my Matzoh. The only question is - does that go under “C”, “B” or “M” in the alphabet? 😃
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### Author:  [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-slave-trade/502649/59 "2009-07-14T20:19:23Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#):
>
> So basically the same as most other intelligence agencies, you mean?
Yes, but Mossad aren’t so well respected by the rest of the world’s security services because they always get the beers in.
And “respect” probably isn’t the right word - “feared” would be more appropriate… because they know where all the bodies are hidden, as the saying goes.
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-and-the-slave-trade/502649/60 "2009-07-14T20:29:40Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#):
>
> Are you saying you don’t think they are the most influential organisation in Israel, and that they have no relevance to the rest of the jews in the world?
As a cheap shot, your earlier Mossad crack fell within the general tolerance of Great Debate practices.
Expanding this to one more Jewish Conspiracy Theory is an out-of-line hijack. If you really intend to defend this line of discussion, take it to a separate thread.
Mossad was not involved in the Atlantic Slave Trade and it has no business in this thread.
[/Moderating]
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