# Jews at "Holocaust Denial" conference **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 12, 2006, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-at-holocaust-denial-conference/383836 "2006-12-12T17:14:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-at-holocaust-denial-conference/383836/1 "2006-12-12T17:14:00Z")
I saw an article on the BBC News website [here](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6171503.stm) that describes how some Ultra-Orthodox Jews have attended a “Holocaust Denial” conference in Iran to protest at the way the Holocaust is being used to justify the existence of the state of Israel. As far as I can make out, they believe that scripture forbids the creation of a Jewish State by force before the coming of the Messiah, that the holocaust itself was “divine will”, and that it would be blasphemous to try and avert another holocaust if one should happen. At this point my head went 'splody. So what’s your take on this? Are these guys for real, and how do other Jews (and Israelis) regard them? ---
**Author:** ![CheeringElvi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/46a35a/32.png) [@CheeringElvi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheeringElvi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-at-holocaust-denial-conference/383836/2 "2006-12-12T17:42:39Z")
[QUOTE=Book Monster] I saw an article on the BBC News website [here](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6171503.stm) that describes how some Ultra-Orthodox Jews have attended a “Holocaust Denial” conference in Iran to protest at the way the Holocaust is being used to justify the existence of the state of Israel. As far as I can make out, they believe that scripture forbids the creation of a Jewish State by force before the coming of the Messiah, that the holocaust itself was “divine will”, and that it would be blasphemous to try and avert another holocaust if one should happen. At this point my head went 'splody. So what’s your take on this? Are these guys for real, and how do other Jews (and Israelis) regard them? [/QUOTE] I thought this was suppose to be an “independant” think tank on the topic 'did the Holocaust ever happen. Seems, from the text, that these guys have already reached the conclusion that the Holocaust happened. Maybe they were invited because of their belief that it would be “blasphemous” to try and avert anotrher holocaust. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-at-holocaust-denial-conference/383836/3 "2006-12-12T17:45:42Z")
If you want my take, these guys (Neturei Karta) are simply loopy. It’s one thing to be anti-Zionist and anti-Israel, but it’s quite another thing to be sharing a stage with David Duke. They seem to have a mad crush on Ahmedinejad, and this isn’t the first time they’ve jumped into bed with him. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-at-holocaust-denial-conference/383836/4 "2006-12-12T17:51:54Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] It’s one thing to be anti-Zionist and anti-Israel, but it’s quite another thing to be sharing a stage with David Duke. [/QUOTE] Some might say that while it may not be _exactly_ the same thing, it’s pretty damn close. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-at-holocaust-denial-conference/383836/5 "2006-12-12T18:08:17Z")
I deny it absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-at-holocaust-denial-conference/383836/6 "2006-12-12T18:15:00Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] I deny it absolutely. [/QUOTE] For yourself, certainly. But take a close look at the people in your corner. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-at-holocaust-denial-conference/383836/7 "2006-12-12T18:18:01Z")
It’s a little hard to, there are so many. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-at-holocaust-denial-conference/383836/8 "2006-12-12T18:20:15Z")
OK. Fewer cryptic responses that may be misunderstood and a bit more explication so that no one goes off thinking that they have been insulted. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![kelly5078](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6f9a4e/32.png) [@kelly5078](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kelly5078)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-at-holocaust-denial-conference/383836/9 "2006-12-12T18:20:28Z")
There was considerable opposition to the formation of Israel at the time by some Orthodox groups, but after it was a done deal they mostly faded away. No hard cites at the moment, but Chaim Potok addressed the issue some in “The Chosen.” The idea that a Jewish state should only be created under the leadership of the Messiah still has some legs, but the group in Tehran are nutballs. A lot of the West Bank settlers are nutballs, too; they just don’t get the press into a lather (probably because they matter, whereas the Tehran “conference” is just the kind of tabloid trash the press loves). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-at-holocaust-denial-conference/383836/10 "2006-12-12T18:20:55Z")
Contrary to popular opinion, quantity does not have a quality of its own. ---
**Author:** ![CheeringElvi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/46a35a/32.png) [@CheeringElvi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheeringElvi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-at-holocaust-denial-conference/383836/11 "2006-12-12T18:21:18Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] It’s a little hard to, there are so many. [/QUOTE] Right, they’re all over the world. In this case _“researchers and intellectuals from Iran, Germany, the US, Austria, Jordan, Armenia, Australia, Indonesia, Britain, Italy, Bahrain, Belgium, Portugal, Pakistan, Denmark, Russia, Japan, the Ivory Coast, France, Kenya, Malaysia, Hungary, Morocco, Egypt, Nigeria and Egypt are scheduled to deliver speeches.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-at-holocaust-denial-conference/383836/12 "2006-12-12T18:27:29Z")
I think **Alessan** was speakly more generally, and not about this conference. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-at-holocaust-denial-conference/383836/13 "2006-12-12T18:29:08Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] I deny it absolutely. [/QUOTE] An _absolute_ denial makes little sense. There was a recent study that I can dig up if you’d like… it looked at the degree of correlation between antisemitism and anti-Zionism. Unsurprisingly, a large number of folks who were anti-Zionism were bigots, and vice versa. While it certainly isn’t _always_ the case, an _absolute_ denial is rather obviously false to facts. Heck, look at some of the more virulent critics on the 'net. How often, for instance, is criticism of Israel mixed in with claims of “Jewish control” of the media, the US government, etc…? Not always, but not never, either. > [@CheeringElvi](#): > > Right, they’re all over the world. Not to belabor the obvious, but so are antisemites. And while we can’t speak to the motivation of all of them, _obviously and without doubt or question_, some of them speak from a position of hate and bigotry. Would you even feel 100% certain that in discussing only those who attend this specific shindig, that there won’t be one single one who bases some of their claims and/or rhetoric on bigotry? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-at-holocaust-denial-conference/383836/14 "2006-12-12T18:39:44Z")
I’ve seen these guys at anti-Israel demonstrations in D.C. They seem a little flaky to me. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-at-holocaust-denial-conference/383836/15 "2006-12-12T18:40:58Z")
So would you argue that Neturei Karta are antisemitic? I wouldn’t. Barmy, yes, antisemitic, no. ---
**Author:** ![CheeringElvi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/46a35a/32.png) [@CheeringElvi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheeringElvi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-at-holocaust-denial-conference/383836/16 "2006-12-12T18:43:09Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] …Not to belabor the obvious, but so are antisemites. [/QUOTE] I think you misunderstood me **FinnAgain** - my point is that anti-semitism remains a problem not just in Iran, but throughout the world. Heck, MAYBE some of the “researchers and intellectuals” at this “independant” conference might have the bug – ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-at-holocaust-denial-conference/383836/17 "2006-12-12T18:45:41Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] So would you argue that Neturei Karta are antisemitic? [/QUOTE] Who are you asking? More importantly, who has claimed that in this thread? > [@CheeringElvi](#): > > I think you misunderstood me FinnAgain My apologies **CheeringElvi** > [@CheeringElvi](#): > > - my point is that anti-semitism remains a problem not just in Iran, but throughout the world. Heck, MAYBE some of the “researchers and intellectuals” at this “independant” conference might have the bug – Indeed, I’d be curious to see some of the minutes from their meetings. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-at-holocaust-denial-conference/383836/18 "2006-12-12T18:51:24Z")
I find it bizarre and sick that anyone, let alone Jews, would feel that they were choosing the lesser of two evils by joining forces with Holocaust deniers to show solidarity against the existance of Israel. Whose agenda is more sinister? More subversive? And goodness, I mean, people who deny the Holocaust do so because they are prejudiced agaist Jews! Sounds like a great team for Jews to join, eh? That said, from the article: > [@](#): > > A representative, UK-based Rabbi Aharon Cohen, told the conference he prayed “that the underlying cause of strife and bloodshed in the Middle East, namely the state known as Israel, be totally and peacefully dissolved”. Is not a completely crazy idea. Certainly, if Israel were to disolve _and the Jews leave_, then _some_ Middle East strife would end. Certainly not all of it, and the idea that the Middle East was a peaceful utopia prior to Israel, or that it will be afterwords, is off-base. The Rabbi goes on to say… > [@](#): > > In its place, Rabbi Cohen said, should be “a regime fully in accordance with the aspirations of the Palestinians when Arab and Jew will be able to live peacefully together as they did for centuries”. … which I’ve just got to laugh at. Can he be so naive to think that if Israel were replaced by the Nation of Palestine, that all of a sudden the Jews and Arabs would get along? It is to laugh. He seems to believe that there is just this political entity that keeps Arabs and Jews from being friends. It’s much more complicated than that. Jews would _not_ be at home or welcome in a Palestinian state (not today and not tomorrow… maybe decades from now, but not today). For peace, they would have to leave. Either these Jews see that and are being disengenuous about their goals, or they are blindly oblivious to the true nature of relations in the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-at-holocaust-denial-conference/383836/19 "2006-12-12T18:54:36Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] Who are you asking? More importantly, who has claimed that in this thread? [/QUOTE] No one claimed that – I was just asking you what you thought. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-at-holocaust-denial-conference/383836/20 "2006-12-12T18:55:58Z")
It’s kind of funny that there’s only one country in the world that people feel the need to constantly go around protesting the existance of. Nobody protests the mere existance of Burma, or Nepal, or Japan, or Denmark, or Tunisia, or Nicaragua, or Angola, or China, or Switzerland, or Thailand, or Cambodia, Canada, or Luxemburg. So why is it that this one particular country is the exception? Why is it that people proudly proclaim themselves “anti-Israel” or “anti-Zionist”, but no one ever claims to be “anti-Burma”? Yeah, people protest the actions of the government of Burma, but no one ever claims that the notion of the existance of such a country as Burma is an affront to humanity. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-at-holocaust-denial-conference/383836.md?page=2)