# Jews & Christians: does God's moral authority derive from his wisdom or his power? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660 "2011-08-30T19:09:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/61 "2011-09-02T17:48:17Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > Always happy to help. šŸ˜‰ > > For the record (and sorry to continue the tangent, but I think itā€™s worth clarifying), God _does_ lie in the garden, saying ā€œ_The day you eat it_, you will surely dieā€ (italics mine). The snake (who isnā€™t Satan) tells the truth. Which is one of the many reasons I love that text. God also lies to Abram (later Abraham) at least once. God has told Sarai (the eventual Sarah) that she will bear a child, and she laughs aloud, saying that Abram is too old for to father a child. Relating this conversation to Abram, God claims that Sarai said _she_ was too old. Somebody (Elie Weisel?) wrote that this story shows that weā€™re not meant to be _stupidly_ or _cruelly_ honest. > [@CJJ](#): > > Is it? Now that would be an interesting point to discussā€¦ > > I thinkā€“in order for any progress to be made on the OPā€™s questionā€“that this question must first be answered: What is the moral authority (if any exists) in a universe without God? > > Atheists IMO are correct in asserting that itā€™s up to theists to present evidence for the existence of God; we should assume he doesnā€™t exist until this is done. Bull. You can make that assumption for the purposes of argument, to frame the terms of discussion. Refusing to do so from the very onset is discourteous and snippy: basically threadshitting. Itā€™s no different than entering thread entitled, say, ā€œWhat team do you want to see in the Superbowl this year?ā€ and saying, ā€œFootball is a complete waste of time, so I donā€™t care who reaches the championship, and neither should anyone else.ā€ ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/62 "2011-09-02T19:01:32Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > "Football is a complete waste of time, " But it _is._šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/63 "2011-09-02T19:39:50Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Bull. You can make that assumption for the purposes of argument, to frame the terms of discussion. Refusing to do so from the very onset is discourteous and snippy: basically threadshitting. Itā€™s no different than entering thread entitled, say, ā€œWhat team do you want to see in the Superbowl this year?ā€ and saying, ā€œFootball is a complete waste of time, so I donā€™t care who reaches the championship, and neither should anyone else.ā€ Nice clip job there. The full paragraph (emphasis added): > [@](#): > > Atheists IMO are correct in asserting that itā€™s up to theists to present evidence for the existence of God; we should assume he doesnā€™t exist until this is done. **However, few would argue that morality doesnā€™t exist (in some form). The theists have a (somewhat) easy answer to why that is, to the point that some infer the existence of morality as proof of Godā€™s existence.** I included the first sentence to introduce the bolded portion, a way to contrast the difference between arguments about Godā€™s existence (where the burden of proof is commonly assigned to theists) and morality (where, IMO, the burden of proof is on atheists, since itā€™s generally agreed morality in some form exists). There have been a few arguments raised in this thread pointing out the apparent contradictions in assigning moral authority to God. Since morality clearly exists, such arguments IMO beg the question: What serves as moral authority if it isnā€™t God (or his wisdom/power)? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/64 "2011-09-02T19:43:45Z")
Nothing. There is no such thing as moral authority. Morality is a subjective, personal aesthetic. Thatā€™s the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/65 "2011-09-02T19:44:18Z")
> [@CJJ](#): > > Nice clip job there. The full paragraph (emphasis added): > > I included the first sentence to introduce the bolded portion, a way to contrast the difference between arguments about Godā€™s existence (where the burden of proof is commonly assigned to theists) and morality (where, IMO, the burden of proof is on atheists, since itā€™s generally agreed morality in some form exists). There have been a few arguments raised in this thread pointing out the apparent contradictions in assigning moral authority to God. Since morality clearly exists, such arguments IMO beg the question: What serves as moral authority if it isnā€™t God (or his wisdom/power)? The question in the OP is explicitly aimed at theists. Hell, itā€™s explicitly aimed at Christians and Jews. Itā€™s an attempt to elicit their opinions. If one is not capable of stipulating for the sake of argument the basic premise, then why come into the thread in the first place? Why not start your own thread? ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/66 "2011-09-02T19:52:13Z")
For the record, Iā€™m not a theist. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/67 "2011-09-02T19:55:30Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > For the record, Iā€™m not a theist. This I know; weā€™ve discussed it before. But you answered the question rather than bashing theists, for which I thank you. I will now cease this hijack of my own thread. ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/68 "2011-09-02T20:16:43Z")
* * * ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/69 "2011-09-02T20:59:57Z")
Nobody in this thread has bashed theists. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/70 "2011-09-02T21:27:52Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > This I know; weā€™ve discussed it before. But you answered the question rather than bashing theists, for which I thank you. I will now cease this hijack of my own thread. Yes, I was just making sure it was clear to all readers! ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/71 "2011-09-02T21:36:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Nobody in this thread has bashed theists. I didnā€™t accuse you or anyone of bashing theists. I accused you of introducing irrelevancies into the discussion and hijacking the thread. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > This I know; weā€™ve discussed it before. But you answered the question rather than bashing theists, for which I thank you. I will now cease this hijack of my own thread. > > > [@SecondJudith](#): > > > > Yes, I was just making sure it was clear to all readers! Iā€™m taking this to mean you would like me to erase the ā€œFor a good prayer, call SecondJudithā€ I spraypainted on t he walls of of the local cathedral, aye?" ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/72 "2011-09-02T22:05:03Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > CitizenPained: > > The Torah only makes such distinctions as regards human understanding. It never suggests that G-dā€™s commandments that are in the ā€œsoul/identity/meā€ category are arbitrary from G-dā€™s perspective. I never said it was arbitrary. I made a distinction between _immoral_ and _halachkah_. There is one in the grander scheme of things.. See: Noahide Laws. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/73 "2011-09-02T22:40:13Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Iā€™m taking this to mean you would like me to erase the ā€œFor a good prayer, call SecondJudithā€ I spraypainted on t he walls of of the local cathedral, aye?" You can leave up the one you sprayed up on the synagogue, though. šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/74 "2011-09-02T22:46:01Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > You can leave up the one you sprayed up on the synagogue, though. šŸ˜ƒ A black man spraypainting a synagogue could be misinterpreted, dear. Iā€™m okay with being a misanthropic creep, but not with the impression that my hatefulness is directed at just one branch of man-the-kind. šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/75 "2011-09-02T23:04:33Z")
Thatā€™s what graffiti footnotes are for, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/76 "2011-09-03T00:29:19Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > Thatā€™s what graffiti footnotes are for, obviously. You havenā€™t thought this through. If the local cantor or rabbit or whatever sees me spraypainting the synagogue theyā€™re likely to sic a golem on me and Iā€™ll be ripped to pieces before I can explain. Thatā€™s how my uncle Silas died. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/77 "2011-09-03T00:30:53Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I didnā€™t accuse you or anyone of bashing theists. Then what was the point of the ā€œthank for not bashing atheistsā€ comment? > [@](#): > > I accused you of introducing irrelevancies into the discussion and hijacking the thread. I didnā€™t do either of those things either. Nor for that matter, did you accuse me of them. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/78 "2011-09-03T00:43:55Z")
You know what, never mind any of that shit. Iā€™m sorry for bringing it up. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/79 "2011-09-03T00:46:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Then what was the point of the ā€œthank for not bashing atheistsā€ comment? If youā€™re talking about my comment to **SecondJudith** before I gave up on the thread and started trading wisecracks with her, here is what I wrote: > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Thank you for actually answering the question as asked. > [@dio](#): > > > [@moi](#): > > > > I accused you of introducing irrelevancies into the discussion and hijacking the thread. > > I didnā€™t do either of those things either. Nor for that matter, did you accuse me of them. Scanning through the thread, I see that my charging with you said hijacking did not occur. I remember typing it out, but I must have edited them out in an attempt to avoid further hijacking by arguing about whether you were hijacking the thread, so itā€™s easy to see how youā€™d not realize the accusation had been made. But rest assured it was there. There was profanity and mockery and reference to Buffy the Vampire Slayer threads and a long screed slandering the entire town of Sinope that if the mods had read it would surely have gotten me accused of hate speech along with the usual complaints about bad jokes and repetitive comments and refusal to use commas when the sentence clearly calls for them. Anyway I didnā€™t want to be banned. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/80 "2011-09-03T02:02:56Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You havenā€™t thought this through. If the local cantor or rabbit or whatever sees me spraypainting the synagogue theyā€™re likely to sic a golem on me and Iā€™ll be ripped to pieces before I can explain. Thatā€™s how my uncle Silas died. Iā€™m calling Rabbi Loew. Christ, Itā€™s Shabbot! What are we doing making sparks?! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660.md?page=5)