# Jews & Christians: does God's moral authority derive from his wisdom or his power? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660 "2011-08-30T19:09:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/81 "2011-09-03T08:49:00Z")
Don’t ask me, I’m Reform. After shul this morning I’m going to the annual Post-Bank Holiday Weekend Weekend Bacon Cheeseburger BBQ with the Liberals. We’re going to spend the afternoon tying and untying knots, writing two letters and erasing them, trapping deer, washing and dyeing wool, and of course the Eruv Relay Race where we see how many things we can carry from private to public spaces and back again. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/82 "2011-09-03T22:32:51Z")
Trapping deer? That must be a hell of a[Have A Heart.](http://www.havahart.com/store/live-animal-traps?gclid=CM33ouiQgqsCFUeFQAodZm7myg) ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/83 "2011-09-04T09:49:11Z")
I’ll grant that I’m an atheist as well, but the OT fairly straight forwardly answers this question. God has chosen his people (the Jews) and will keep them successful and powerful, so long as they abide by his rules. He also says that, as the single and sole creator of the world, he is the only God _worth_ worshiping. To me this sounds fairly implicit that it’s God’s power to protect, reward, take, or punish and his desire to be worshiped (by at least the Jews) that is meant to be the core of his authority – moral or not. Christianity simply makes the argument that what God wants just happens to be moral behavior, and of course that he is more concerned about moral behavior than he is about whether you are a Jew or not. He will still protect and reward you for behaving as he desires. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/84 "2011-09-04T14:45:58Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I’ll grant that I’m an atheist as well, but the OT fairly straight forwardly answers this question. God has chosen his people (the Jews) and will keep them successful and powerful, so long as they abide by his rules. He also says that, as the single and sole creator of the world, he is the only God _worth_ worshiping. > > To me this sounds fairly implicit that it’s God’s power to protect, reward, take, or punish and his desire to be worshiped (by at least the Jews) that is meant to be the core of his authority – moral or not. Christianity simply makes the argument that what God wants just happens to be moral behavior, and of course that he is more concerned about moral behavior than he is about whether you are a Jew or not. He will still protect and reward you for behaving as he desires. Yes, but in the NT we are told (as I mentioned before) that “Everything is lawful.” I am being serious when I think that biblically speaking, there is no such thing as moral authority. Things aren’t morally permissible or impermissible–rather they are either “expedient” for “edification” or they fail to be so. What you decide to do determines, _not_ whether you have followed proper authority, but rather, well, basically, whether you’re a _jerk_ or not. In my view, biblically speaking, questions of “moral authority” are childish. They are not for grown-ups. And their answers are false. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/85 "2011-09-05T01:57:22Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I am being serious when I think that biblically speaking, there is no such thing as moral authority. Things aren’t morally permissible or impermissible–rather they are either “expedient” for “edification” or they fail to be so. What you decide to do determines, _not_ whether you have followed proper authority, but rather, well, basically, whether you’re a _jerk_ or not. > > In my view, biblically speaking, questions of “moral authority” are childish. They are not for grown-ups. And their answers are false. The Bible tells you how it thinks you should live and behave. The question the OP asks is, “Where does God get off telling me how to live and behave?” You’re getting overly caught up in semantics. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/86 "2011-09-05T02:36:26Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The Bible tells you how it thinks you should live and behave. The question the OP asks is, “Where does God get off telling me how to live and behave?” You’re getting overly caught up in semantics. I don’t know that I’m getting “caught up in semantics” so much as I am “reading the OP.” But if you’re right to gloss the OP’s question as you do, then it’s good to have that clarified. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/87 "2011-09-05T02:51:17Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > Don’t ask me, I’m Reform. After shul this morning I’m going to the annual Post-Bank Holiday Weekend Weekend Bacon Cheeseburger BBQ with the Liberals. We’re going to spend the afternoon tying and untying knots, writing two letters and erasing them, trapping deer, washing and dyeing wool, and of course the Eruv Relay Race where we see how many things we can carry from private to public spaces and back again. A+ ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/88 "2011-09-05T03:07:10Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I don’t know that I’m getting “caught up in semantics” so much as I am “reading the OP.” > > But if you’re right to gloss the OP’s question as you do, then it’s good to have that clarified. It’s not glossing it. You’re debating the semantics of authority and morality, whether they’re real terms as the layperson thinks them, and whether one can even follow something like morality. But the OP explicitly states that “Granted that God […] has genuine moral authority”, i.e. that it’s a presupposition of the question. The quibble isn’t over the definition of “moral authority”, it’s just assumed to exist and God has it. The question from there is why we care. Is he right because he’s wise enough to know that some behavior is better than others? Or is he simply right because if you disagree, he’ll kick your ass? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/89 "2011-09-05T03:27:21Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > It’s not glossing it. WTF fella? From the OP: > [@](#): > > Granted that God exists and has genuine moral authority, does that authority derive from his superior power or from his superior wisdom? Put another way: does God command some actions and forbid others because their immorality is an essential quality rather than the result of his command; or are certain acts wrong and others right only because of God’s word? From you: > [@](#): > > Where does God get off telling me how to live and behave? The latter is undebateably intended as a gloss on the former. You go on to point out in your post that the OP intends it to be assumed that God has moral authority. Fair point–when I say I don’t think he does have that authority biblically speaking, I’m not “answering the OP on its own terms” as people say. There’s no semantic quibble–or even discussion–happening at all. I’m just registering that one of the assumptions of the OP may be wrong _in an interesting way_. (I don’t anticipate there are many people at all who share the view I expressed). If that’s the end of it, that’s the end of it. > [@](#): > > You’re debating the semantics of authority and morality, whether they’re real terms as the layperson thinks them, and whether one can even follow > something like morality. None of that happened. I think (biblically speaking) there is no such thing as moral authority. But as to the semantics of the phrase “moral authority” I intend the phrase just exactly as the OP intends it. No semantic quibbling, debate or discussion is occuring. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/90 "2011-09-05T11:25:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The Bible contains examples of God telling lies. For instance, God lied to Adam and Eve when he told them that they would die if they ate from the tree of knowledge. wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/91 "2011-09-05T12:15:54Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > wrong. God **commanded** the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it; for in the day that you eat of it you will surely die.” ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/92 "2011-09-05T13:51:26Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > God **commanded** the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it; for in the day that you eat of it you will surely die.” Thanks for biblical site. One would think, however, that a message board that brings “nuanced reading” to absurdity\*, it wouldn’t be particularly tenuous to see that they were admonished that if they disobeyed this clear rule that they would die—they’d receive the “death penalty.” Which is exactly what they received. In the day they rebelled they were essentially sentenced to death. Their fate was sealed in that very day. (and you’re invited to site the dialogue that establishes that simple fact) And…they died. If the fact that God didn’t execute them _that very day_ means he somehow lied, then have at it. \*I’m often _amazed_ at the contortionism that goes on in biblical threads----like the Genesis admonitions on homosexuality being about hospitality of all things. So it seems a little fishy when literalism rears it’s head here. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/93 "2011-09-05T14:32:27Z")
It involves reading with context in mind; I know many branches of Bible-based religions don’t emphasise this (US Protestant evangelicalism is currently the most prominent, but not the only, example of one of these branches). > [@raindog](#): > > I’m often _amazed_ at the contortionism that goes on in biblical threads----like the Genesis admonitions on homosexuality being about hospitality of all things. It is. > [@raindog](#): > > If the fact that God didn’t execute them _that very day_ means he somehow lied, then have at it. It does. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/94 "2011-09-05T14:41:05Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > It involves reading with context in mind; I know many branches of Bible-based religions don’t emphasise this (US Protestant evangelicalism is currently the most prominent, but not the only, example of one of these branches). > > It is. > > It does. Context, huh? I hadn’t thought of that. Enlighten me, perhaps? With cites? ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/95 "2011-09-05T14:50:23Z")
Sure thing - could you just clarify exactly what you’re looking for cites of? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/96 "2011-09-05T14:53:21Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > Sure thing - could you just clarify exactly what you’re looking for cites of? Either of your contentions, really. I’m easy. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/97 "2011-09-05T15:03:24Z")
Well, heres one thing I’m kind of interested in you enlightening me over. When is the earliest valid cite for the notion that the Genesis accounts are really being about hospitality, rather than homosexuality? I mean, I think you’d agree that age—in and of itself----doesn’t confer legitimacy to a flawed conclusion/theory. (although it often assumes legitimacy through the tradition and ceremony of age) But I noted you said, _“…many branches of Bible-based religions don’t emphasise this (US Protestant evangelicalism is currently the most prominent, but not the only, example of one of these branches)…”_, and that implies to me that _ **at one time** _ mainstream Christianity had the correct view on the text in question. So my curiosity is this: How, when and why did the correct, mainstream Christian view on those Genesis texts evolve into a condemnation of homosexuality? ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/98 "2011-09-05T15:16:10Z")
The cite for God lying (or at least saying something that isn’t true) is the text. The Hebrew is very emphatic that _this_ day the humans will _surely_ die, which doesn’t happen in the story. They don’t die that day. I can tell you that the ‘sin’ of Sodom has been perceived, and discussed, as inhospitality for a few thousand years, and give you cites from Talmud from that. One of my favourites for slapstick: > [@Sanhedrin 109b](#): > > One who crossed over [into Sodom] by ferry had to pay four zuzim, but one who crossed by water had to pay eight. Once a launderer came there. They said, ‘Give us four zuzim [for the ferry toll].’ But he said, ‘I crossed by water!’ They said, ‘You must give eight zuzim for crossing by water.’ He refused to give it, so they beat him. He went before the judge, who ordered him, ‘Give them a fee for bleeding you, and eight zuzim for crossing through the water’. > > Now Eliezer, Abraham’s servant, happened to be there, and was attacked. When he went before the judge, he said, ‘Give them a fee for bleeding you.’ He picked up a rock and hit the judge. ‘What is this!’ he said. He said, ‘The fee you owe me, give to the man who attacked me, and my money will stay where it is.’ > > They had beds for travellers to sleep on. If he were too long, they shortened him; if too short, they stretched him out. … > > If a beggar came there, every resident gave him a dinar, and wrote their names on them, but gave no bread. When the beggar died, each came and took back their coin. > > They agreed among themselves that whoever invites a stranger to a feast would be stripped of his clothes. A banquet was in progress, when Eliezer came there, but they gave him no bread. He sat down at the end of the table. They asked him, ‘Who invited you?’ He said to the one sitting beside him, ‘You invited me.’ He said to himself, ‘They might hear that I invited him, and strip me of my clothes!’ So he took up and ran outside. Eliezer did the same to them all, until they had all gone, and then ate his dinner. To be honest I’m not very familiar with Christian theology so I’m not sure when the interpretation that Sodom’s fault was exclusively homosexuality began to take hold. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/99 "2011-09-05T15:16:22Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Well, heres one thing I’m kind of interested in you enlightening me over. > > When is the earliest valid cite for the notion that the Genesis accounts are really being about hospitality, rather than homosexuality? It’s in the Book of Ezekiel (c. 600 BCE). ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/100 "2011-09-05T15:18:17Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > But I noted you said, _“…many branches of Bible-based religions don’t emphasise this (US Protestant evangelicalism is currently the most prominent, but not the only, example of one of these branches)…”_, and that implies to me that _ **at one time** _ mainstream Christianity had the correct view on the text in question. I don’t know enough about Christian theology to say whether this is true or not. I certainly didn’t mean to imply it. ETA: Thanks **Dio**! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660.md?page=6)