# Jews & Christians: does God's moral authority derive from his wisdom or his power? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660 "2011-08-30T19:09:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/121 "2011-09-05T22:57:33Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > I’m not sure why this is hard! A reference to a story is a reference to a story. Sodom has no meaning outside the Genesis story. I’m not sure how much clearer I can be about that, really! > > Anyway, the word “Sodom” isn’t the only (emphasis) connection between the two texts - the Genesis story refers to inhospitality and greed, the Ezekiel text refers to inhospitality and greed. There is a thematic connection as well. > > Exactly! **SecondJudith** Do me a favor and quote the Genesis and Ezekiel texts side by side. Given that they say the same thing essentially, and have thematic continuity, I imagine this will clear things right up. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/122 "2011-09-05T22:59:08Z")
Ezekiel is silent on homosexuality and so is Genesis. I also haven’t forced any words into Genesis, just pointed out what Ezekiel says about the Genesis story (and you can’t separate Sodom from Genesis. Sodom is, by definition, a city in that story. A reference to the city is a reference to the story). ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/123 "2011-09-05T23:08:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Ezekiel is silent on homosexuality and so is Genesis. > > I also haven’t forced any words into Genesis, just pointed out what Ezekiel says about the Genesis story (and you can’t separate Sodom from Genesis. Sodom is, by definition, a city in that story. A reference to the city is a reference to the story). Ezekiel is writing about **Jerusalem** , and _in passing_ mentions mentions Sodom as an example. He is not writing a treatise on the history of Sodom and the paucity of words cannot be reasonably be construed as an ipso facto endorsement of homosexuality, or a “clarification” of any earlier writing. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/124 "2011-09-05T23:16:05Z")
He references Genesis in passing, yes, but no one said he was “clarifying,” anything about it, just using it as an object example that his audience would understand. I didn’t say it was an “endorsement of homosexuality.” It says nothing about homosexuality at all, and neither does Genesis, so there’s no reason to read it into either text. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/125 "2011-09-05T23:20:01Z")
Let me clarify further In the Sodom account, Sodom is the subject of the story. It is pointed, lengthy and involves conversations with God himself. Much later Ezekiel is writing a lengthy piece on Jerusalem and mentions Sodom in passing (something along the lines of 2 verses). Contextually it is clear that he is writing about Jerusalem. Its also clear that Sodom is only mentioned in passing. It is not the author’s intent to offer a fuller perspective on Sodom, nor is he attempting to 'set anything straight" regarding Sodom. Most importantly, I suppose, is that he doesn’t say anything to _contradict_ any previous text. In any event him not saying “God condemns homosexuality” isn’t the same as him saying, “The genesis accounts don’t have anything to do with homosexuality.” ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/126 "2011-09-05T23:24:29Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He references Genesis in passing, yes, but no one said he was “clarifying,” anything about it, just using it as an object example that his audience would understand. I didn’t say it was an “endorsement of homosexuality.” It says nothing about homosexuality at all, and neither does Genesis, so there’s no reason to read it into either text. Ok. My take on that then is this: Let’s investigate the Genesis accounts and see whether homosexuality is an element in the destruction of Sodom. Whats clear, however, is that Ezekiel texts have no bearing on that answer, and are 100% irrelevant to that discussion. They certainly don’t represent the \*\*\*earliest valid cite for the notion that the Genesis accounts are really being about hospitality, rather than homosexuality. * * * ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/127 "2011-09-06T08:22:00Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Let’s investigate the Genesis accounts and see whether homosexuality is an element in the destruction of Sodom. Yes, please, let’s do some Torah study! I’ve used the NIV translation for the simple reason that it was the quickest one I could find online. > [@Genesis 14 8-24](#): > > Then the king of Sodom, the king of Gomorrah, the king of Admah, the king of Zeboyim and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar) marched out and drew up their battle lines in the Valley of Siddim against Kedorlaomer king of Elam, Tidal king of Goyim, Amraphel king of Shinar and Arioch king of Ellasar—four kings against five. Now the Valley of Siddim was full of tar pits, and when the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, some of the men fell into them and the rest fled to the hills. The four kings seized all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah and all their food; then they went away. They also carried off Abram’s nephew Lot and his possessions, since he was living in Sodom. > > A man who had escaped came and reported this to Abram the Hebrew. Now Abram was living near the great trees of Mamre the Amorite, a brother of Eshkol and Aner, all of whom were allied with Abram. When Abram heard that his relative had been taken captive, he called out the 318 trained men born in his household and went in pursuit as far as Dan. During the night Abram divided his men to attack them and he routed them, pursuing them as far as Hobah, north of Damascus. He recovered all the goods and brought back his relative Lot and his possessions, together with the women and the other people. > > After Abram returned from defeating Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him, the king of Sodom came out to meet him in the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King’s Valley). Then Melchizedek, king of Salem, brought out bread and wine. He was priest of El Elyon, and he blessed Abram, saying, > > “Blessed be Abram by El Elyon, > Creator of heaven and earth. > And praise be to El Elyon, > who delivered your enemies into your hand.” > > Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything. > > The king of Sodom said to Abram, “Give me the souls and keep the goods for yourself.” > > But Abram said to the king of Sodom, “With raised hand I have sworn an oath to YHWH, El Elyon, creator of heaven and earth, that I will accept nothing belonging to you, not even a thread or the strap of a sandal, so that you will never be able to say, ‘I made Abram rich.’ I will accept nothing but what my men have eaten and the share that belongs to the men who went with me — to Aner, Eshkol and Mamre. Let them have their share.” After this, Abram heads home, Lot settles in Sodom, Abram does a ritual with some dead birds and cattle and speaks to God, God tells Abram he will be the father of nations, Hagar falls pregnant and Ishmael is born, God renames Abram and Sarai Abraham and Sarah. Three strangers appear outside their tent, and when one of them says they will have a son, Sarah laughs. > [@Genesis 18 15-33](#): > > Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, “I did not laugh.” > > But he said, “Yes, you did laugh.” > > When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. Then YHWH said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of YHWH by doing what is right and just, so that YHWH will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.” > > Then YHWH said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.” > > The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before YHWH. Then Abraham approached and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing — to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the judge of all the earth do right?” > > YHWH said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.” > > Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to YHWH, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?” > > “If I find forty-five there, I will not destroy it.” > > Once again he spoke, “What if only forty are found there?” > > “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.” > > Then he said, “May YHWH not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?” > > “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” > > Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to YHWH, what if only twenty can be found there?” > > “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.” > > Then he said, “May YHWH not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?” > > “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.” > > When YHWH had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home. (as a side note, I really do love Abraham’s sarcasm in this conversation. “Far be it from you to kill the righteous with the wicked, like, I don’t know, by sending a giant flood to kill everyone - far be it from you to do something as obviously wrong as that!”) ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/128 "2011-09-06T10:47:14Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > (as a side note, I really do love Abraham’s sarcasm in this conversation. “Far be it from you to kill the righteous with the wicked, like, I don’t know, by sending a giant flood to kill everyone - far be it from you to do something as obviously wrong as that!”) ?? The story as told in Genesis is that there _weren’t_ any righteous people on the planet, isn’t it? (Other than Noah.) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/129 "2011-09-06T12:35:20Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Ok. > > My take on that then is this: > > Let’s investigate the Genesis accounts and see whether homosexuality is an element in the destruction of Sodom. They don’t. You’re welcome to try, though. > [@](#): > > Whats clear, however, is that Ezekiel texts have no bearing on that answer, and are 100% irrelevant to that discussion. I continue to be confused as to why you say this. It’s a direct reference to the text of Genesis. How can the town be separated from the story? > [@](#): > > They certainly don’t represent the \*\*\*earliest valid cite for the notion that the Genesis accounts are really being about hospitality, rather than homosexuality. > > * * * Can you name an earlier one, or are you denying what it plainly says were the sins of Sodom? Here’s a better question for you, what’s the earliest record you can find for the sin of Sodom being identified as homosexuality? That’s nowhere in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/130 "2011-09-06T13:45:21Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > They don’t. You’re welcome to try, though. > [@](#): > > I continue to be confused as to why you say this. It’s a direct reference to the text of Genesis. How can the town be separated from the story? I’ll try to relieve you of your confusion. Perhaps you can relieve me of mine. There is no quarrel on my part that Ezekiel is referring to Sodom. None. But that wasn’t your claim. Your claim is that reference establishes that the texts in Ezekiel **that you brought up** _‘represent the earliest valid cite for the notion that the Genesis accounts are really being about hospitality, rather than homosexuality.’_ Lets get past this, ok? Ezekiel referenced Sodom; the very same Sodom in Genesis. But you can’t take that simple fact and use to say it means whatever you want to mean. > [@](#): > > Can you name an earlier one, or are you denying what it plainly says were the sins of Sodom? I asked **SecondJudith** and you volunteered for her. The best that can be said for your cite is that the word “Sodom” appeared in it; _a two verse reference in a lengthy tome about Jerusalem._ Your cite was irrelevant, and incorrect. So I’ll ask you again: **When is the earliest valid cite for the notion that the Genesis accounts are really being about hospitality, rather than homosexuality?** > [@](#): > > Here’s a better question for you, what’s the earliest record you can find for the sin of Sodom being identified as homosexuality? That’s nowhere in the Bible. I’m torn with this question. You and I know each other, in a virtual kind of way. That said, we agree on several things and IMO your thoughts on Hell, and the Trinity are first rate, and accurate. IMO, however, you seem to get all Episcopalian on us over the issue of homosexuality. Thats odd, as it seems that an atheist shouldn’t need, or care if god is a homophobe or not. I’ve wanted to start a series of threads on the bible and homosexuality, the Trinity and hell. The MB has never had a comprehensive discussion about the bible’s take on homosexuality, despite all the bluster and posturing that goes on in them. I just don’t have the time that they would take. This much I know: having read your previous thoughts on the bible and homosexuality, they are not scholarly, and do not accurately reflect view of biblical history. Your recent Ezekiel posts serve as a good example. There is a desire to show that biblical history and the history of the Jews and Christians indicated the homosexuality was welcomed, and that the notion that homosexuality was a practice condemned by God is a recent development in a Michelle Bachman kind of way. The exact opposite is true. Neither the bible, nor history supports you. This idea that the bible says nothing about homosexuality is absurd on it’s face, and it a very recent development; advanced not by scholars but by liberal theologians who need their bright and shiny Jesus to be “inclusive.” ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/131 "2011-09-06T14:00:29Z")
Could you point to me the mentions of homosexuality as part of to God’s decision to destroy Sodom that I’ve quoted above, please? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/132 "2011-09-06T15:23:59Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > I’ll try to relieve you of your confusion. Perhaps you can relieve me of mine. > > There is no quarrel on my part that Ezekiel is referring to Sodom. None. > > But that wasn’t your claim. Your claim is that reference establishes that the texts in Ezekiel **that you brought up** _‘represent the earliest valid cite for the notion that the Genesis accounts are really being about hospitality, rather than homosexuality.’_ > > Lets get past this, ok? Ezekiel referenced Sodom; the very same Sodom in Genesis. > > But you can’t take that simple fact and use to say it means whatever you want to mean. > > I asked **SecondJudith** and you volunteered for her. The best that can be said for your cite is that the word “Sodom” appeared in it; _a two verse reference in a lengthy tome about Jerusalem._ > > Your cite was irrelevant, and incorrect. You keep saying it’s not a reference to the Genesis text, but that’s exactly what it is. Any reference to Sodom is _ipso facto_ a reference to the Genesis text. The author of Ezekiel is specifically commenting on the Genesis story and reiterating why the city in that story was destroyed. That’s a 600 BCE commentary on the sin of Sodom being inhospitality. It’s exactly what you asked for. > [@](#): > > So I’ll ask you again: **When is the earliest valid cite for the notion that the Genesis accounts are really being about hospitality, rather than homosexuality?** There is no “rather than.” The homosexuality angle is not part of the text and was never a Jewish interpretation. It was _always_ inhospitality, and lack of generosity, even in the story itself. Homosexuality is never mentioned. > [@](#): > > I’m torn with this question. > > You and I know each other, in a virtual kind of way. > > That said, we agree on several things and IMO your thoughts on Hell, and the Trinity are first rate, and accurate. > > IMO, however, you seem to get all Episcopalian on us over the issue of homosexuality. Thats odd, as it seems that an atheist shouldn’t need, or care if god is a homophobe or not. I _don’t_ care, but the Bible says what it says, and doesn’t say what it doesn’t say. > [@](#): > > I’ve wanted to start a series of threads on the bible and homosexuality, the Trinity and hell. The MB has never had a comprehensive discussion about the bible’s take on homosexuality, despite all the bluster and posturing that goes on in them. I just don’t have the time that they would take. > > This much I know: having read your previous thoughts on the bible and homosexuality, they are not scholarly, and do not accurately reflect view of biblical history. Your recent Ezekiel posts serve as a good example. My posts on the alleged references to homosexuality in the Bible are as well researched, factually accurate and objective as possible. You’ll have to explain to me what’s not scholarly about them. > [@](#): > > There is a desire to show that biblical history and the history of the Jews and Christians indicated the homosexuality was welcomed, and that the notion that homosexuality was a practice condemned by God is a recent development in a Michelle Bachman kind of way. I have no such belief at all. My position is that the NT doesn’t really say anything about homosexuality, not that it endorses it. It just doesn’t talk about it. > [@](#): > > The exact opposite is true. Neither the bible, nor history supports you. This idea that the bible says nothing about homosexuality is absurd on it’s face, and it a very recent development; advanced not by scholars but by liberal theologians who need their bright and shiny Jesus to be “inclusive.” What I’ve said in this thread is that _Genesis_ doesn’t say anything about homosexuality, in particular the Sodom story. Leviticus may or may not be condemning all homosexual acts (there is an argument to be made that this famous passage was an allusion to temple prostitution). The New Testament never condemns it and the only NT passage to clearly mention it says that God himself turned people gay. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/133 "2011-09-07T00:39:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The homosexuality angle is not part of the text and was never a Jewish interpretation. It was _always_ inhospitality, and lack of generosity, even in the story itself. Homosexuality is never mentioned. Unlike most, I actually read the bit in Ezekiel once and it was fairly plain that Ezekiel was talking to a group of women and warning them of the sins of the women of Sodom (vanity, inhospitality, and other sins that go against the female role). Sodomy is rather difficult among women, so the subject wouldn’t be able to come up even if it was an actual crime of Sodom. As Ezekiel used it, _any_ crime or sin against God was rampant in Sodom, and hence the word is a placeholder for “bad people”. You don’t really need to strip it down to a single sin. Ezekiel mentions for more sins than just inhospitality. I’ll grant that the earliest fellow to review Sodom and Gomorrah in the Talmud used the bit in Ezekiel to come to the determination of “inhospitality”, but frankly I think that fellow was pulling that interpretation out of his ass. ---
**Author:** ![blanketman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@blanketman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blanketman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/134 "2011-09-08T15:26:35Z")
What a great question.please give me a little time to gather my thoughts and i will try to answer from the jewish side of the question. Ill be back.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/135 "2011-09-08T15:40:46Z")
> [@blanketman](#): > > What a great question.please give me a little time to gather my thoughts and i will try to answer from the jewish side of the question. Ill be back.🙂 :: slowly turns turns over hourglass; looks menacingly at blanketman while lighting cigar :: You have three hours and seventeen minutes. Keep us waiting an instant longer, and I will blow smoke in your face. ---
**Author:** ![blanketman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@blanketman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blanketman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/136 "2011-09-08T16:23:34Z")
It will take a little longer than that as i have some things to do but i will try to answer your question. Please no smoke. i gave it up 45 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/137 "2011-09-08T16:33:56Z")
> [@blanketman](#): > > It will take a little longer than that as i have some things to do but i will try to answer your question. > Please no smoke. i gave it up 45 years ago. Fine. I’ve reset the hourglass. But keep us waiting past the deadline and the rabbit dies. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/138 "2011-09-08T16:49:27Z")
Historically speaking, Yahweh/El is from the Canaanite pantheon and his authority comes from his power, pure and simple. It would not have occurred to primal, tribal henotheists to attribute authority to anything else. Might and right were the same thing. The Book of Job also makes it clear (at least in that book) that God’s authority still derived from being bigger and stronger than everybody else. ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/139 "2011-09-09T19:57:01Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > So I’ll ask you again: **When is the earliest valid cite for the notion that the Genesis accounts are really being about hospitality, rather than homosexuality?** The problem is that you can’t have a notion that the account is about X, rather than Y until you have a notion that the account is actually about Y. So, you won’t have a cite to the notion that Genesis are about hospitality, rather than homosexuality that dates any earlier than the first time that someone claims that it’s really about homosexuality. So, got a cite for the first instance of that happening? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660/140 "2011-09-09T23:50:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Historically speaking, Yahweh/El is from the Canaanite pantheon and his authority comes from his power, pure and simple. It would not have occurred to primal, tribal henotheists to attribute authority to anything else. Might and right were the same thing. Historically speaking, Yahweh is not El. He’s one of El’s sons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-christians-does-gods-moral-authority-derive-from-his-wisdom-or-his-power/594660.md?page=6)