# Jews for Jesus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 9, 2006, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649 "2006-03-09T05:32:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/21 "2006-03-09T19:09:24Z")
The best GQ answer that can be given for this is that while many J4J’s might be _ethnically_ Jewish, the sect is theologically purely Southern Baptist. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/22 "2006-03-09T19:18:51Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > The organization sometimes defines themselves as “completed Jews” in light of Jesus’ words “I came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it,” Jesus himself being Jew, and being the final sacrifice for sin as typified in Old Testament practices. In other words, they’re Christians. I hope you realize that the phrase “completed Jews” is rather insulting to all those Jews who do not feel there is anything “incomplete” about their practice or belief. > [@](#): > > Targeting Jews for “conversion/completion” is nothing new, since the early church was exclusively Jewish (cf. Book of Acts, chap 1-10, New Testament.) Targeting Jews for conversion is one thing…_posing_ as Jews to try to dupe them into an _unwitting_ conversion is quite another. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/23 "2006-03-09T19:20:42Z")
I’d also like to point out that there are many people who are ethnically Jewish, who may or may not consider themselves “Messianic Jews,” who believe in Jesus as the messiah and in are no way affiliated with the organization known as “Jews for Jesus.” My former priest’s wife, for example, was very proud of her Jewish heritage and culture, and did not see any inherent conflict between that and being a follower of Jesus. I had a good college friend who was the same, and neither was involved with (or even thought very highly of) Jews for Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/24 "2006-03-09T19:21:29Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > If you’ll excuse me, I have to go out and have my circumcision reversed, eat a bacon cheeseburger with a side of lobster, and worship Vishnu, because none of that will make me any less of a Jew. Indeed it won’t, bro. If you’re born of a Jewish mother, you are a Jew according to Jewish law. I haven’t been to shul in years and other than for a funeral or wedding or something, I never intend to go again but don’t you fucking dare tell me that I’m not a member of the Tribe. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/25 "2006-03-09T19:28:00Z")
However, I think that most Jewish groups consider that there’s a difference between simply failing to follow most halachic laws, on the one hand, and actual apostasy on the other. Explicitly **renouncing** one’s Jewish identity, or adopting a contradictory religious identity such as Christian or Muslim, does somehow make one at least “less Jewish”, if not absolutely “non-Jewish”. See [this article](http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles3/apostasy.htm) on varieties of Jewish apostasy for far more information than I can comprehend on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/26 "2006-03-09T19:29:07Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I’d also like to point out that there are many people who are ethnically Jewish, who may or may not consider themselves “Messianic Jews,” who believe in Jesus as the messiah and in are no way affiliated with the organization known as “Jews for Jesus.” My former priest’s wife, for example, was very proud of her Jewish heritage and culture, and did not see any inherent conflict between that and being a follower of Jesus. I had a good college friend who was the same, and neither was involved with (or even thought very highly of) Jews for Jesus. It’s true that there are other Christian sects besides Jews for Jesus who call themselves “Messianic Jews.” They are still theologically Christian, not Jewish. You can’t be theologically Jewish and worship Jesus any more than you can be theologically Jewish and worship cows. For that matter, making the Messiah an object of worship in itself is heresy in Judaism. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/27 "2006-03-09T19:38:13Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Indeed it won’t, bro. If you’re born of a Jewish mother, you are a Jew according to Jewish law. I haven’t been to shul in years and other than for a funeral or wedding or something, I never intend to go again but don’t you fucking dare tell me that I’m not a member of the Tribe. Yes, technically any one born of a Jewish mother is a Jew. An observant Jew who has studied Talmud has embraced their Judaism and given it great importance in their life. A man born of a Jewish mother, who goes on to become an ordained Baptist minister has turned his back on Judaism, denounced it as flawed and incomplete, and gone on to do many things that are anethema to Judaism. Technically, any one born of a Jewish mother is a Jew. In anything other than a technical sense, not all Jews are equally Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/28 "2006-03-09T19:43:16Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > It’s true that there are other Christian sects besides Jews for Jesus who call themselves “Messianic Jews.” They are still theologically Christian, not Jewish. > > You can’t be theologically Jewish and worship Jesus any more than you can be theologically Jewish and worship cows. > > For that matter, making the Messiah an object of worship in itself is heresy in Judaism. Right, I’m not disputing that. Theologically, they were both Christians, although in a very Jewish-y style (they observed most Jewish holidays, for example, although they did not observe dietary restrictions). My point only being that they self-identified as Jewish Christians, and had nothing to do with the group Jews for Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/29 "2006-03-09T20:38:56Z")
**Doc** , I simply cannot agree. Either Jews are a race/nation, in which case belief in Jesus may mean that they’re not following the Law but it doesn’t mean they aren’t Jewish, OR Judaism is a religion. If the latter, then Jews for Jesus have just as much right to call themselves Jews as Reform Jews who don’t wear tzitzis do – you’ve all got different interpretations of the Torah, but none of you (from an outsider’s perspective) have the right to say your interpretation is the one true reading. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/30 "2006-03-09T20:59:04Z")
**Cliffy** , you are right in a sort of way, in that people ultimately have the right to adopt whatever name they choose for their religious identity. If a particular sect wants to identify itself as “Messianic Jews” or “Christian Jews”, that’s their choice. Similarly, Mormons consider themselves Christians although some other Christian groups don’t recognize them as such. However, existing religious groups also have the right to establish normative standards about what their religion involves. Currently, no group that is generally recognized as Jewish recognizes “Messianic Jews” or “Christian Jews” as being genuinely Jewish. Depending on your perspective, the relationship of “Messianic Jews” to Judaism is at best a schism and at worst a fraud. So it’s only reasonable to expect that the use of the name “Jewish” for such groups will be strongly contested. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/31 "2006-03-09T21:01:20Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > **Doc** , I simply cannot agree. Either Jews are a race/nation, in which case belief in Jesus may mean that they’re not following the Law but it doesn’t mean they aren’t Jewish, OR Judaism is a religion. If the latter, then Jews for Jesus have just as much right to call themselves Jews as Reform Jews who don’t wear tzitzis do – you’ve all got different interpretations of the Torah, but none of you (from an outsider’s perspective) have the right to say your interpretation is the one true reading. > > –Cliffy It’s not an either/or. The word “Jewish” has two discrete defintions. It designates an ethnicity _and_ a religion. The two are not necessarily synonomous. You can follow the religion without being ethnically Jewish and vice-versa. Jews for Jesus is specifically a _religious_ sect which seeks to convert ethnic Jews to Christianity. They may be ethnically Jewish but _they do not practice Judaism_. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/32 "2006-03-09T21:41:48Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > They are lying liars, and they lie. > > Jews For Jesus was founded by a Baptist minister who changed his name to Goldstein. The organization is funded by various Christian groups. Its endgoal is the conversion of all Jews to Christianity. Here in Philadelphia, Jews For Jesus offer services to Soviet immigrants. They also print pamphlets in Russian explaining to Soviet Jews, who were forbidden by law to study or practice Judaism in the USSR and thus often have very little knowledge of it, that Jesus is an essential part of Judaism. Yeah. Treating them as a splinter sect of Judaism because they self-identify as Jewish misses the point that the organization is sponsored by evangelical Christian groups and actively works to convince people that practicing Christianity is somehow compatible with remaining Jewish. I can accept that - say - Mormons are Christian, despite the fact that their teachings are in many ways far outside those of traditional Christians. But the Jews for Jesus are clearly being disingenuous. Accepting their self-identity as valid requires pretending that they believe what they claim to. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/33 "2006-03-09T22:36:52Z")
> [@kelly5078](#): > > I think the same thing obtains here. What with the amount of assimilation of Jews, it is unlikely that many congregations would write off a Jew simply because he made the really incredibly stupid mistake of buying into the Messianic Jews. In better times, they might have been more inclined to throw the bum out (see Spinoza). Isn’t there a difference though between Jews for Jesus and the Messianic Jews? I was under the impression that the latter were simply Christian sects who still practice some of the old Jewish customs. (They’d probably be better off, though, changing their name to, oh, Kosher Christians or something like that). They’re not really Jewish, but they’re not scammers trying to trick Jews ignorant of their religion into joining. > [@DocCathode](#): > > If you’ll excuse me, I have to go out and have my circumcision reversed, Tug-A-Hoy? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/34 "2006-03-09T22:52:11Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > However, existing religious groups also have the right to establish normative standards about what their religion involves. Currently, no group that is generally recognized as Jewish recognizes “Messianic Jews” or “Christian Jews” as being genuinely Jewish. Sure. But they can’t establish such standards for other religious groups. **Doc** and others are well within their rights to say “they’re not Jews in the way that my community defines it.” But that’s not I took him to be saying. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/35 "2006-03-09T22:59:32Z")
They’re not religious Jews in that way that JEWS define it and they do not adhere to Jewish doctrine as it has been defined for thousands of years. They do not practice Judaism, they practice Christianity. Religious practice is not defined by ethnicity. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2006, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/36 "2006-03-09T23:44:13Z")
Jews for Jesus is a Christian sect: All forms of Judaism, no matter how liberal or conservative their understanding of Torah, mitzvot, etc., teach that the Messiah hasn’t come yet. All forms of Christianity teach that Jesus Christ is the Messiah (that’s why it’s called “Christianity,” get it?). Jews for Jesus teaches that Jesus is the Messiah. Jews for Jesus is a form of Christianity. The same applies to other sects of Messianic Judaism that teach that Jesus is the Messiah (there have been other sects which held that someone else was the Messiah - these aren’t Jewish as we understand it now, either). ---
**Author:** ![kelly5078](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6f9a4e/32.png) [@kelly5078](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kelly5078)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/37 "2006-03-10T00:10:42Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Isn’t there a difference though between Jews for Jesus and the Messianic Jews? I’m using Messianic Jews as a blanket term for the various movements, aiming to convert Jews to Christianity in what I can only described as an underhanded fashion. There’s the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (and Australia, as well), Jews for Jesus, the International Messianic Jewish Alliance, and a bunch of other[outfits](http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/mess.html) aiming toward the same goal. There are, I believe, various sects practicing what you’re referring to, i.e., Christians who incorporate various Jewish beliefs and/or rituals in their worship, but I know almost nothing about them. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/38 "2006-03-10T00:15:28Z")
> [@kelly5078](#): > > I’m using Messianic Jews as a blanket term for the various movements, aiming to convert Jews to Christianity in what I can only described as an underhanded fashion. There’s the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (and Australia, as well), Jews for Jesus, the International Messianic Jewish Alliance, and a bunch of other[outfits](http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/mess.html) aiming toward the same goal. > > There are, I believe, various sects practicing what you’re referring to, i.e., Christians who incorporate various Jewish beliefs and/or rituals in their worship, but I know almost nothing about them. Ah, I see. Yeah, I understand that. I guess next we’ll see Muslims for Mary? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/39 "2006-03-10T02:37:52Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > Sure. But they can’t establish such standards for other religious groups. **Doc** and others are well within their rights to say “they’re not Jews in the way that my community defines it.” But that’s not I took him to be saying. > > –Cliffy You are correct. I did not mean ‘as my community defines it’. I mean that they are not Jews as defined by Maimonides, Rashi, Hillel, or anybody who knows anything about Judaism. A group could go around engaging in human sacrfice, praying in Esperanto and smearing each other with Jell-O and claim to be Jewish. This does not make them Jewish. While there is certainly plenty of room for debate when it comes to ‘Who is a Jew?’, Jews For Jesus and other Messianic groups are not Jewish. To define them as such is to redefine the word into absurdity. Let’s flip this around- If I continue to believe that Jesus was at best an Essene scholar with some interesting ideas, and at worst never existed, that the messiah has not yet come, that the NT is wholly the work of humans, continue to observe all the Mosaic laws, wear a yarmulke, pray in Hebrew, etc am I a Christian? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/40 "2006-03-10T03:00:16Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Ah, I see. Yeah, I understand that. I guess next we’ll see Muslims for Mary? 😉 Actually, Mary the mother of Jesus plays a [very significant role](http://www.islamfortoday.com/galvan03.htm) in Islam. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649.md?page=3)