# Jews for Jesus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 9, 2006, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649 "2006-03-09T05:32:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/61 "2006-03-10T22:41:34Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > I think you’re missing an important point - the evidence suggests (the fact that they are heavily involved with evangelical Christian groups in an effort designed to convert particularly vulnerable Jewish crowds) that they _don’t_ really consider themselves to be Jewish, and as people have discussed, many of them actually are not Jewish in ancestry either. Yeah, I probably should have said “obviously they call themselves Jewish”, not “see themselves as Jewish” . . . but I think my basic point still stands. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/62 "2006-03-10T22:55:05Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Ah, so the Baptist minister is as much a Jew as **ZevSteinhart** , **CMKeller** or myself. Thank you so much for clearing that up. > > If you’ll excuse me, I have to go out and have my circumcision reversed, eat a bacon cheeseburger with a side of lobster, and worship Vishnu, because none of that will make me any less of a Jew. > > Words cannot express my thanks, or the true majesty of your wisdom **Handsome Harry** Words can not express how confused I am over this sarcastic attitude. I have a sister- in- law who is Jewish. At least she claims to be. Her mother is also Jewish. She is not a christian but she is an atheist. Did she lose her right to claim being a Jew? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/63 "2006-03-10T22:57:15Z")
_So, are Jewish-born atheists apostates from Judaism, in the same way that Jewish-born converts to Christianity are? I can’t really tell._ well, strictly speaking I’m a New Paradigm Gnostic, but if cash funding is afoot, I could be a Jew for Jesus…A small per diem, perhaps, to defray the burdensome costs of lapdances.(New Paradigm Gnostics worship in their own special way…) ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/64 "2006-03-10T23:01:28Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Yeah, I probably should have said “obviously they call themselves Jewish”, not “see themselves as Jewish” . . . but I think my basic point still stands. I guess it comes down to opinion to some extent, but since I don’t believe they see themselves as Jewish, I certainly wouldn’t call them that. I’m willing to cut people some slack based on their self-conception - I’ll call Reconstructionist Jews “Jewish”, for instance, because (even if their teachings seem bizarre to me) I think they at least consider themselves Jews. But if a group only calls itself “Jewish” for a specific purpose - fooling others - I don’t see why we should respect that. If they don’t really think they’re Jewish, why should I pretend like they are? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/65 "2006-03-10T23:09:58Z")
- have my circumcision reversed\* if only… ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/66 "2006-03-10T23:18:40Z")
> [@The Flying Dutchman](#): > > I have a sister- in- law who is Jewish. At least she claims to be. Her mother is also Jewish. She is not a christian but she is an atheist. Did she lose her right to claim being a Jew? If she is an atheist, then how could she possibly claim to be a Jew in the religious sense without being a liar? Can she say that technically, halachicly, she is a Jew? Of course she can. Can she say that _culturally_ she is a Jew? Sure thing. One of my mother’s friends is an atheist but still loves Jewish food, Jewish music, and speaks Yiddish. However, from the way your question is phrased, the woman in question married your brother who is a Christian. Under Jewish law, this may count as renouncing your faith. **Alaric The Goth** It can be done. People have done it since Helenic Greece. As JDT was so fond of pointing out, the Tug A Hoy will stretch the remaining skin until you achieve that goyem look. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/67 "2006-03-10T23:23:38Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > If she is an atheist, then how could she possibly claim to be a Jew in the religious sense without being a liar? > > Can she say that technically, halachicly, she is a Jew? Of course she can. > > Can she say that _culturally_ she is a Jew? Sure thing. One of my mother’s friends is an atheist but still loves Jewish food, Jewish music, and speaks Yiddish. > > However, from the way your question is phrased, the woman in question married your brother who is a Christian. Under Jewish law, this may count as renouncing your faith. > > **Alaric The Goth** It can be done. People have done it since Helenic Greece. As JDT was so fond of pointing out, the Tug A Hoy will stretch the remaining skin until you achieve that goyem look. yeah, but it won’t have all those nerve endings the sonofabitch moil got… ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/68 "2006-03-10T23:25:57Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > yeah, but it won’t have all those nerve endings the sonofabitch moil got… It’s spelled mohel. According to **Cecil** the foreskin is just ordinary skin. If you disagree, you should start a new thread in Comments, or GD. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/69 "2006-03-10T23:29:50Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > If you’ll excuse me, I have to go out and have my circumcision reversed, eat a bacon cheeseburger with a side of lobster, and worship Vishnu, because none of that will make me any less of a Jew. You know, I have this lovely recipe for little canapés. They’re little pies, made of leavened dough, shaped into a likeness of Krishna, filled with shredded pork, shrimp, and haloumi cheese. I was all set to serve them at Passover, but I’m suddenly filled with a sense that maybe it wouldn’t be the best idea . . . ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/70 "2006-03-10T23:42:35Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > It’s spelled mohel. According to **Cecil** the foreskin is just ordinary skin. If you disagree, you should start a new thread in Comments, or GD. yeah, I’ve heard all that–usually from other victims of genital mutilation. How the fuck do we know? Anyway, it was MY dick, and no one asked my permission to cut it. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/71 "2006-03-10T23:44:37Z")
It’s spelled mohel actually, it’s spelled in hebrew, spoke in yiddish–who the fuck knows how its “correctly” transliterated in roman letters. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/72 "2006-03-10T23:48:56Z")
[Wikpedia and at least two mohels](http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=mohel&btn=Yahoo%21+Search&tab=Web&ei=utf-8&fr=my-vert-web-top) I’m willing to except that mohels know the proper English spelling of mohel. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/73 "2006-03-10T23:51:42Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > [Wikpedia and at least two mohels](http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=mohel&btn=Yahoo%21+Search&tab=Web&ei=utf-8&fr=my-vert-web-top) > I’m willing to except that mohels know the proper English spelling of mohel. ok, how come it’s pronounced Moyl? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/74 "2006-03-10T23:55:48Z")
talk about “seek and ye shall find” one of my ads(dont know 'bout yours)says : Believe in Jesus-Get $75.00 for taking survey" ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/75 "2006-03-11T00:03:01Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > ok, how come it’s pronounced Moyl? Many Hebrew words, and most Yiddish words, have standard accepted English spellings. These spellings do not always conform to English orthography. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/76 "2006-03-11T00:14:01Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > However, from the way your question is phrased, the woman in question married your brother who is a Christian. Under Jewish law, this may count as renouncing your faith. Actually, the woman in question “married” my wife’s sister who is not Christian. Given Leviticus, do you think this counts as renouncing your Jewish faith? I have two brothers. Neither of them are Christians. How did you come to that conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/77 "2006-03-11T00:19:09Z")
> [@The Flying Dutchman](#): > > Actually, the woman in question “married” my wife’s sister who is not Christian. Given Leviticus, do you think this counts as renouncing your Jewish faith? I’d have to check. > [@](#): > > I have two brothers. Neither of them are Christians. How did you come to that conclusion? When you mentioned that your sister-in-law was Jewish, it strongly implied that your family was not Jewish. I assumed that your family was Christian. Looking back, without anything in your location field, I should not have assumed that. ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/78 "2006-03-11T01:11:48Z")
I’d like to present a little different of a viewpoint. I’m a secular Jew, really more of an atheist myself but I was brought up in an orthodox shul, my whole family goes to Conservative synagogue, etc. First, the Jews for Jesus use deceptive marketing practices. I think we all agree on this. But this doesn’t mean that the Jews who are members of J4J, IMHO, are not Jewish. There is plenty of historical basis for Jews converting to other religions and still be considered Jews. If memory serves me correctly, many prominent Jews publicly converted during the past few hundred years – the Rothschilds and Disraeli come to mind but there was an entire chapter on this in Johnson’s _History of the Jews_. Part of this was to escape public persecution, part of it was to better integrate into society. These people are for the most part considered of Jewish descent or Jewish. Same thing goes with people forced into conversion, including the famous _marranos_ of the Spanish Inquisition. In fact, many of these eventually rediscovered Judaism when it was less of a liability to do so… I certainly think this goes on today, especially for the case of secular and atheist Jews. I would conjecture that religion has actually very little to do with being considered Jewish. For instance, I don’t think you could be held up if you were making aliyah if you claimed to be Jewish and had documentation proving your mother was Jewish, even if you turned out to be a Baptist preacher. If you were born Jewish but lived your whole life as a devout Muslim and turned around at age 50 and wanted to be a Jew, you wouldn’t need to convene a beth din or take a dip in a mikveh. At least I don’t think so. So in a very real sense, with all the things that really matter in Jewish life, you can never renounce your Judaism if you came out of (to paraphrase David Cross) a Jewish vagina or you have undergone an Orthodox conversion… ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/79 "2006-03-11T01:58:02Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > If you’ll excuse me, I have to go out and have my circumcision reversed, eat a bacon cheeseburger with a side of lobster, and worship Vishnu, because none of that will make me any less of a Jew. There’s a place that serves cheeseburgers with a side of LOBSTER!!! Merciful heaven, there IS a God!!! (Hey some of us are easy to convert – I used to be an atheist until I found out about the cheeseburger/lobster thing.) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/80 "2006-03-11T02:12:16Z")
I know a guy who can’t get access to his circumcision records. His parents took him to a “No-Tell Mohel.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649.md?page=5)