# Jews for Jesus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 9, 2006, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649 "2006-03-09T05:32:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/101 "2006-03-12T14:50:08Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Cite for evidence that the bulk of Jews for Jesus leadership are ethnic Gentile pretenders - heck, the man claiming them to be “lying liars” couldn’t get the founder’s name correct. I did get the fact that he’s a southern Baptist minister correct. I did get that they prey upon the Refusniks who live in this section of Philly correct. I did, however, misrember the founder’s name. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/102 "2006-03-12T17:32:57Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > On the other hand, the claim that Christians are authentic “spiritual Jews” while non-C’tian physical Jews aren’t is unnecessarily provocative. Maybe Paul needed to make that point in the first century, but I don’t think it’s something we C’tians twenty centuries later need pursue. I have no problem tho suggesting that we share with Jews a call from God to be “spiritual Israelites”. Why was it good for Paul to make that point, but bad for modern Christians to? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/103 "2006-03-12T18:03:32Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Why was it good for Paul to make that point, but bad for modern Christians to? Paul was writing to “Jews for Jesus” who were having difficulty in accepting gentiles on the basis of Judaism at that time. It was difficult even for this radical Jewish sect to think that the God of Israel would extend his covenant beyond the Jews. Lets face it, Judaism even today is a fairly “racist” religion. It was a message of acceptance. To repeat that message today, in light of the overwhelming gentile membersip in Christianity would only piss people off and could only be construed as dissing Judaism. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/104 "2006-03-12T18:32:00Z")
It was dissing Judaism back then, too, though. The only difference now is that, in the US, at least, Christians are more sensitive to the feelings of non Christians ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/105 "2006-03-12T18:51:13Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > From a Jewish list of messianic prophecies as identified on the indicated web site from the electronic Jewish Encyclopedia: > [Jewish Encyclopedia (ca 1906) - Messiah](http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=510&letter=M) (Web site is quirky. Sometimes it works, other times it fails.) > > Future ideal king: > Isaiah 9: 1 - 6 > Isaiah 11: 1 - 10 > Isaiah 32: 1 - 5 > > (The Immanuel passage of Isaiah 7: 14, alluded to by Matthew (1: 23) is not considered Messianic in Judaism.) > > Further: > > Micah 5: 1, 3 - 8 > Jeremiah 23: 5 - 6 and 32: 15 - 16 > Jeremiah 30: 9 > Hosea 3: 5 > Ezekiel 17: 23 > Ezekiel 34: 23 ff > Ezekiel 37: 24 ff > Haggai 2: 23 > Zechariah 3: 8 > Zechariah 6: 12 > Zechariah 9: 9 - 10 > > (In Deutero-Isaiah, the Jewish people, not an individual messiah, will be the source of the salvation of humanity. So, Isaiah 42: 1 - 6, 49: 1 - 6, 50: 4 - 9, 52: 13-53: 12 are not messianic in the sense of a person of the messiah. Although they do refer to the “servant of God” who will convert the nations to the service of God, the “servant of God” in Jewish theology is the Jewish people, and these passages not considered messianic.) > > I have seen suggestions that Judaism stopped viewing other messianic prophecies after the rise of Christianity. I doubt that that is true. I think it more likely that Paul and Matthew were moved to see “messianic” forecasting in a great number of passages because they found the parallels in the life of Jesus and that the Jews prior to the life of Jesus had not actually viewed many of those passages in the same light. > > Catholic interpretations of messianic prophecies as identified on the indicated web site: (I think this list is over broad, in that it views some verses as messianic prophecies when the collator really meant that Christians view them as prophecies of Jesus, not necessarily of the messiah.) > [Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus Christ - Scripture Catholic](http://www.scripturecatholic.com/messianic_prophecies.html) Thanks so much Tom. This is one of the things I appreciate about the fine folks of the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/106 "2006-03-12T23:46:04Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > It was dissing Judaism back then, too, though. The only difference now is that, in the US, at least, Christians are more sensitive to the feelings of non Christians Probably because Paul didn’t have sixteen centuries of C’tian persecution against Jews to apologize for. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/107 "2006-03-13T00:22:47Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Why was it good for Paul to make that point, but bad for modern Christians to? It’s bad when it’s predicated on fundamentally dishonest tactics, as with the Jews for Jesus. Why should we ignore their conduct and pretend that they’re anything other than deliberately mendacious? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/108 "2006-03-13T02:38:44Z")
I agree with you. I’m just saying that it was bad when Paul did it too. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/109 "2006-03-13T02:41:46Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > I agree with you. I’m just saying that it was bad when Paul did it too. :: shrug :: Paul was a dick. If I believed in such things, I would probably conclude that Paul was Satan’s messenger in order to erase Jesus’s message and turn Christianity into a force for evil. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/110 "2006-03-13T02:48:27Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > :: shrug :: > > Paul was a dick. If I believed in such things, I would probably conclude that Paul was Satan’s messenger in order to erase Jesus’s message and turn Christianity into a force for evil. I don’t think Paul was all that bad. It’s the later guys writing in Paul’s name that were the dicks. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/111 "2006-03-13T04:24:33Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > :: shrug :: > > Paul was a dick. If I believed in such things, I would probably conclude that Paul was Satan’s messenger in order to erase Jesus’s message and turn Christianity into a force for evil. Well, it wasn’t just Paul. Christianity is based on anti-semitism…it’s based on the idea that Christianity is “real” Judaism. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/112 "2006-03-13T18:14:50Z")
Wondering what would non-Pauline Christianity be like, if it existed. IIRC, there were non-Pauline Christians at the very beginning, but somehow they disappeared? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/113 "2006-03-13T18:31:11Z")
Weren’t those the Essene Christians or something like that? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/114 "2006-03-13T19:55:00Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Weren’t those the Essene Christians or something like that? The Essenes were Jewish. The big non-Pauline Christian group was called the Ebionites, who also get called in other sources, “Judaizers”. There big belief was that Christianity was strictly for Jews, that Christians had to obey Jewish law, and that, if a non-Jew wanted to become a Christian, he would have to first convert to Judaism. So, to bring it back to the OP, they were the original “Jews for Jesus”. The other big group of non-Pauline Christianity were the Christian Gnostics, which was a Christian version of the older Gnostic movement. Christian Gnostics tended to believe that the world was split into two, an evil physical world, and a good spiritual world. They also tended to believe that the majority of people were trapped in this evil physical world and doomed, except for a small group of “wise ones”, who understood the spiritual world, and were therefore beyond good and evil. I don’t think there are any more Christian Gnostic groups left, although there might be a few non-Christian Gnostics. The last major Christian Gnostic groups were the Bogomils in Bulgaria and the Cathars in France, but they were both wiped out in the Middle Ages. ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/115 "2006-03-13T20:06:55Z")
Jews For Jesus makes about as much sense as Christians Against Christ. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/116 "2006-03-14T00:08:59Z")
Hurm. In trying to define “Jews for Jesus” as non-Jewish, I’ve seen someone define the Sadducees as non-Jewish. That’s spooky. And, for the sake of any serious Jew who hoped for Messiahship from Bar Kokhba or Menachem Schneerson, I feel I must point out that, “The Messiah hasn’t come yet,” is, logically, a lousy position from which to start your definition of orthodoxy, because, if he will come, then at some point it will be false. “The Messiah is not G-d, nor to be worshiped as such,” is a good delineator from Xtianity, as is, “The Messiah is expected to do something constructive for Jewry.” “Jews for Jesus” are, from what I can tell, a Christian organization with a strong emphasis on the Jewish origins of Xtianity, & some of them are probably less Jewish in practice than others. But, in theory, from a strictly neutral perspective, I would suggest that someone could be both “Jewish” & “Christian,” if they subscribed fully to Torah (though perhaps not all the Talmud) & believed (however mistakenly, imo) in the Messiahship of that Yeshua guy. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649/117 "2006-03-14T00:22:57Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > And, for the sake of any serious Jew who hoped for Messiahship from Bar Kokhba or Menachem Schneerson, I feel I must point out that, “The Messiah hasn’t come yet,” is, logically, a lousy position from which to start your definition of orthodoxy, because, if he will come, then at some point it will be false. “The Messiah is not G-d, nor to be worshiped as such,” is a good delineator from Xtianity, as is, “The Messiah is expected to do something constructive for Jewry.” We have [much more specific expectations for the Messiah](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshiach). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/347649.md?page=5)