Now that sounds like my kind of religion!
The human sacrifice, the Jell-O, or the Esperanto? I don’t want to bring the wrong box to Gettysdope.
Moving to GD for further discussion.
-xash
General Questions Moderator
So if I have a license plate that says"fuck yahweh", but no fish on the bumper, i am, what?
(other than dead meat for the first highway patrol car that rolls up on me)
You mean, if you’re ethnically Jewish but don’t practice Judaism or accept its tenets, but nonetheless you don’t profess Christianity or any other non-Jewish religion?
I can’t quite figure out what your “apostasy” status would be in that case. Technically, anybody who renounces Judaism and abandons its beliefs would seem to qualify as an apostate, even if they didn’t sign up to a different religious faith. But there seems to be a certain amount of waffling on whether “secular Jews” count as apostates. Here’s what the folks at the anti-Messianic Jews for Judaism have to say about it:
So, are Jewish-born atheists apostates from Judaism, in the same way that Jewish-born converts to Christianity are? I can’t really tell.
The way it works is, you’re still a Jew right up until you actrively join another religion. You have to think in tribal terms - Judaism does no differentiate between religion and ethnicity, so if you abandon your “tribe’s” religion, you’re still a member of the tribe (albiet a wayward one, at least in the eyes of the religious), but if you join another “tribe’s” religion then you’re cast out. The fact that Christianity is not a tribal religion isn’t relevant. In Jewish thought, all religions are tribal.
Hmmm. So does atheism count as another “tribe”? If a person who is ethnically Jewish says “There is no God, and all this talk about divine commandments and divine law is just a fairy tale”, is that person cast out?
A part of my cite that I didn’t quote stated that subscribing to certain forms of dogmatic atheism, such as the dialectical materialism of Communist philosophy, counts as apostasy. But AFAICT, it kind of waffled on the issue of whether all atheists are apostates, commenting only that a lot of them are “really” agnostics.
To use your “tribe” analogy, a Jewish atheist seems to be analogous to somebody who leaves their own tribe but refuses to join another because they think the whole “tribal” concept is bullshit. Does that make them an apostate?
Another thing that needs pointing out, and I’m surprised that nobody else noted it, (tho they may have, and I missed it!) is that not only can they call themselves completed Jews, what-have-you, but the first 1-10 chapters of the book of Romans (new Testament) is more or less about this same theme somewhat. Abraham ‘started’ the whole thing before being circumcised, 400 + or- years before Moses, etc…
The Apostle Paul points out that a REAL Jew is one that does God’s will, not the outward rites/physical features/trappings. Paul gives his bona fides somewhere in the New Testament for his Judaism.
The book of Hebrews also fleshes out the idea of Jesus being the final sacrifice of the Jews.
Point being: the Baptist/Jew J4J person has as much right to call himself a Jew as anybody that adheres to the ‘Jewish traditions,’ if not more so, and need not consider that he is scamming anybody.
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I taught at an Orthodox Jewish private school for a while and during that time a friend and colleague of mine, a Jewish (by birth) atheist, was promoted to principal of the school. A short time later, a rumour began to circulate that he attended a Reform synagogue and he was summoned to a Board meeting in double quick time. He managed to convince them that he would not be found anywhere near any synagogue on any Sabbath day and the problem was resolved. To not believe in any of the religion was OK, but to have a different slant on the matter was not.
Grim
In the little church I run sound at there are two men {Father and son I guess} who come wearing Yamakas. The older man is often included in ceremonies and reads in Hebrew and explains the history of certain traditions.
It would seem to me that someone who honors his or her Jewish heritage and still wants to observe certain Jewish tradition and holidays , but also believes Christ is the Messiah has every right to consider themselves Jewish just as others have an equal right to say they are not. The two religions are historically entwined Jesus being a Jewish rabbi himself. If their sincere belief is Jesus was the fulfillment of OT Jewish law and prophecy then why would accepting the Messiah as promised by Jewish law make them any less Jewish in their own perspective?
I don’t see how converting Jews to accept Jesus is underhanded in any way unless their practices are deceptive. Of course if you believe Jesus is the only way to Heaven and your heritage gives you a certain insight into Judaism you might feel that’s your calling. Nothing wrong with that. The comment in Wikipedia,
“Christians should not target Jews for conversion.” seems a little ridiculous. An ex Muslim might feel his understanding of Islam makes him uniquely qualified to convert Muslims. Anyone pursuing a course like that must accept the backlash that goes with it. No religion likes being told they are wrong. I’ve had some experience in that pointing out the flaws in traditional Christianity.
Just as Mormons consider themselves Christians while other Christians do not, it all boils down to a matter of opinion and perspective to a large degree. According to certain Church of Christ congregations there are no other Christians but them.
If they changed their name to “Christians with Jewish heritage who seek to convert Jews for Jesus” would you feel better? Sorry they can’t afford the T shirts and bumper stickers.
Oh come off it, Harry. Look, as far as I’m concerned people can call themselves whatever the hell they want, but if we’re asking whether they’re Jews in the eyes of the Jewish religion, the answer is a pretty clear cut NO. Christian sources (e.g., the whole New Testament) have no baring on whether or not someone is a Jew in the eyes of Judaism, since those sources have no standing whatsoever within the Jewish religion.
Saying a practicing Christian has arguably more right to call himself a Jew than a practicing Jew does is just laughably absurd.
The image I now indelibly get when hearing the term “Jews for Jesus” is Robert Stack taking out the J4J proselytizer in the airport terminal in “Airplane”.
Great scene.
Well, I would characterize their methods as deceptive. A follower of Jesus is a Christian, yet when asked who they are, (we actually had a poster who was making an issue of this go into their Manhattan office and ask them), they claim that they are Jews.
Given all the points of conflict between Judaism and Christianity, an outfit that is run by a Baptist who, presumably, teaches a Baptist oriented theology, who identifies first as Jewish seems pretty dishonest, to me.
But we’re not asking that. Thats not what them OP says and thats not what Harry is saying either. Your comment is off target, unnessecary, and perhaps laughably absurd.
I think it’s been clearly established that most practricing Jews would *not * see them as Jews. Nobody is argueing that point. The point being made is that if they come from Jewish heritage and sincerely see Jesus as the fullfillment of OT Jewish prophecy then it is not absurd for them to see themselves as Jews by their own definition wich they have a right to set. Obviously many others disagree with them. That makes them disagreed with, not wrong.
I agree, if the Jewish thing is just an angle used to target Jews for conversion rather than a sincere belief. It’s a judgement call of their own heart and whomever is dealing with them. I’ve had encounters with evangelicals whom I thought used less than honest methods to “win souls for Jesus” didn’t like it.
If they simply say, we’re Jews for Jesus and then proceed to explain what that means that seems pretty up front. My point was that simply believing themselves to be Jews and using that name doesn’t qualify them as dishonest. If they don’t really believe they are Jews and still use the name that would be. I can see how many could be completely sincere. Some probably aren’t humans being humans and all.
It’s worth pointing out in passing that Israel has made a practice in recent years of classifying certain Christians as Jews. From jewishvirtuallibrary.org: “Additionally, non-Jews (usually Christians) who immigrate to the country with their Jewish relatives often are counted as Jews for statistical purposes.” There may be between a quarter and a half a million of these people (almost all of them Russian and Ukrainian) in Israel. (Cite)
Oh please. The OP asks: “Are they Jewish, or are they Christian?” Obviously they consider themselves Jewish, or they would have named their group “Non-Jews for Jesus”. The only real question here is whether they are Jewish by whatever passes for the official or standard definition of the term. I would say that that means “Are the Jewish according to the rules of Judaism?” At any rate, it’s an incredible stretch to interpret the question to mean “Are they Jewish according to Christian doctrine?”
I could go around calling myself a Chinese citizen, but if someone asks if I’m a Chinese citizen, the most reasonable interpretation of the question is “Does China consider tim314 a Chinese citizen.” They’re not asking for my opinion (especially if I’ve already made it obvious by calling myself Chinese citizen tim314.) They’re also probably not seeking the opinion of France.
Just to clarify my opinion, I don’t really care what someone calls themselves religiously – although I could see how it would get on people’s nerves to have someone drastically distorting what it means to be a member of their religion. You don’t think the Jews for Jesus would have any objections to someone calling himself a Christian but denying the validity of the entire New Testament?
But what does bother me (and what drew me into this thread in the first place) is when someone points to Christian doctrine to say that a Baptist has “as much right if not more so” (emphasis mine) to call himself a Jew. That’s tantamount to saying “Christians know better than Jews what it means to be Jewish.” I find that condescending and borderline offensive.
If it turns out handsomeharry’s point was “people should be allowed to call themselves whatever they want”, then I withdraw my objection. But it sure looks to me like he’s putting forth the definition of Judaism given by the Apostle Paul as more correct than that put forward by actual Jews today. He doesn’t say, “I think the founder of J4J has every right to call himself a Jew,” he says “the person that began J4J was indeed a ‘Jew,’ or as much of one as anybody can legitimately call oneself such.” That’s not a statement about what he has a right to say, it’s a statement about what he is – it’s a statement that the Jewish people are wrong about what it means to be Jewish.
It’s no different than if a Muslim were to say “real Christians follow Mohammed, and believe Jesus was a prophet, not the Son of God. Muslims have as much right or more to call themselves Christians than Christians do.” I really doubt the typical Christian, or Jews for Jesus member, would find these statements wholly unobjectionable.
Except, we already have a term for people who “see Jesus as the fulfillment of OT Jewish prophecy”. We call them “Christians.”
There HAVE to be standards for definitions. Otherwise you could have a pagan buddhist could call herself “Jewish” just because she happens to like bagels and lox.
If you want to keep Jewish traditions while practicing Christianity, fine. Call yourself, oh, Torah Christians, or something like that. But don’t call yourself a Jew when you’re not.
I think you’re missing an important point - the evidence suggests (the fact that they are heavily involved with evangelical Christian groups in an effort designed to convert particularly vulnerable Jewish crowds) that they don’t really consider themselves to be Jewish, and as people have discussed, many of them actually are not Jewish in ancestry either.