# Jews For Jesus **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 1, 2006, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790 "2006-10-01T00:35:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2006, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790/21 "2006-10-01T17:57:13Z")
I thought that J4J was a bunch of liers claiming to be converted jews so they can convert real jews. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2006, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790/22 "2006-10-01T18:54:00Z")
[QUOTE=copperwindow] Does j4j recognize themselves as a jewish organazation? [/QUOTE] Yes they do. And to Dan, no- there are plenty of actual ethnic Jews in J4J, including founder Marvin (Moishe) Rosen. Some of them were raised religiously Jewish but probably not most. I think Rosen was raised either secular or laxly observant, then became a Christian (Baptist), and then started incorporating his Jewish heritage into his Christian faith & ministry. Paul only taught that Torah ritual & observance are irrelevant to Gentile believers in Jesus. Re Jewish Jesus-followers, Paul seemed to teach that it was important but not primary. If it got in the way of personal trust in God, reliance of Christ’s grace, or fellowship with non-Jewish believers, then it could be set aside. Btw, many Messianic Jews hold that Paul was not speaking against Torah ritual & observance but Rabbinic additions to such. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2006, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790/23 "2006-10-01T23:53:19Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Yes they do. [/QUOTE] That’s not true. J4J identifies strictly as an evangelical Christian missionary organization which seeks to convert Jews _from_ Judaism. Martin Rosen, whatever his ethnicity, was a Southern Baptist preacher who started J4J’s deliberately as a strategy for the _conversion_ of ethnic Jews to Christianity. Rosen explicitly states that his goal is to _convert_ them. You can’t convert from Judaism to Judaism. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790/24 "2006-10-02T00:09:44Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] That’s not true. J4J identifies strictly as an evangelical Christian missionary organization which seeks to convert Jews _from_ Judaism. Martin Rosen, whatever his ethnicity, was a Southern Baptist preacher who started J4J’s deliberately as a strategy for the _conversion_ of ethnic Jews to Christianity. Rosen explicitly states that his goal is to _convert_ them. You can’t convert from Judaism to Judaism. [/QUOTE] Yes, but J4Js still identify themselves as Jewish. They just don’t identify themselves as Rabbinic/Talmudic Jewish, whether Orthodox, Conservative, Reform or Reconstructionist. They regard “Messianic” as a perfectly valid form of Judaism. All other divisions of Judaism disagree. (Tho Dennis Prager has said that he would accept a Messianic Jew who does not worship Jesus as God or try to convert others as authentically Jewish.) And of course you can convert from Judaism to Judaism, or else why do the Orthodox Rabbis insist that Reform Jews w/o a Jewish mother convert to be fully accepted by them? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790/25 "2006-10-02T00:20:17Z")
**Diogenes** , I have to side with **FriarTed** on this last point. Whatever the realities of the Jews for Jesus organization, they _identify themselves_ as Jewish. [Jews for Jesus: Judaica](http://www.jewsforjesus.org/judaica) > [@](#): > > There’s an old saying that goes, “Two Jews, three opinions.” Judaism is by no means a monolith; it has changed and will continue to change for years to come. Chances are if you go to a handful of Jewish web sites, you’ll find dozens of explanations of what it means to “be Jewish” and “live Jewishly.” These days, the Jewish experience varies from extremely religious to atheistic and all points in between and our observances, practices and ways of life often reflect this diversity. > > As Jews for Jesus, we likewise can diverge from one another when it comes to living out our Jewishness, but as a whole, we can’t help but view it in light of Jesus the Messiah. They are pretty explicit in (deceptively) [denying that they are a Baptist outfit](http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/newsletter/2006_09/moishe). ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790/26 "2006-10-02T00:29:36Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Yes they do. And to Dan, no- there are plenty of actual ethnic Jews in J4J, including founder Marvin (Moishe) Rosen. Some of them were raised religiously Jewish but probably not most. I think Rosen was raised either secular or laxly observant, then became a Christian (Baptist), and then started incorporating his Jewish heritage into his Christian faith & ministry. [/QUOTE] I looked up in Wikipedia which seems to have a fairly balanced arrticle. Kind of interesting, and while not as dishonest an oraganization as I thought, it still seems like a stretch to call it “Jews” for Jesus. > [@](#): > > The organization was founded under the name Hineni Ministries in 1973 by Moishe Rosen, an ordained Baptist minister[26] who was born Jewish but converted to Christianity at 17. [27] Rosen remained its executive director until May of 1996 when he was replaced by David Brickner, [8] who, though having some Jewish ancestry, is not Jewish according to Jewish Law. [28]…Statistics of membership numbers for the Jews for Jesus movement are not known. Since those born as gentiles are active in the movement, having established it and continue to fund it, the true number of people who are known to have been born Jewish and have become full-fledged members of the movement is unknown. > > Stan Telchin, formerly associated with Jews for Jesus, wrote in Messianic Judaism is not Christianity:A Loving Call to Unity [32] that 80 percent of those who attend Messianic Synagogues are not Jewish. An official figure quoted to counter it pegged the number at 50 percent. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790/27 "2006-10-02T01:36:11Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Tho Dennis Prager has said that he would accept a Messianic Jew who does not worship Jesus as God or try to convert others as authentically Jewish.) [/QUOTE] A Messianic Jew who does not worship Jesus would be a contradiction in terms. At the very least it would be somebody whose concept of the Messiah did not match either the Jewish or the Christian definitions. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790/28 "2006-10-02T03:29:15Z")
[QUOTE=DanBlather] I thought that J4J was a bunch of liers claiming to be converted jews so they can convert real jews. [/QUOTE] I think in some cases this is the case; not all of the members claim to have originally been Jewish but some prominent cases have come to light of either outright lies or very tenuous claims to Judaism, though I wouldn’t know how to go about finding examples. It’s important to note that Jews for Jesus has faced a lot of criticism from a number of Christian groups because of their rather deceptive practices. > [@tomndebb](#): > > Diogenes, I have to side with FriarTed on this last point. Whatever the realities of the Jews for Jesus organization, they identify themselves as Jewish. I’m not sure what relevance their claim carries, though. They’re not Jewish under any meaningful standard. I could declare myself Jewish right now, but it wouldn’t make it true. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790/29 "2006-10-02T03:42:43Z")
The thing is, they also _clearly_ identify as evangelical Christians. Any pretense to religious Judaism is knowingly calculated and deceptive. It’s a _tactic_, not a genuine self-identification. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790/30 "2006-10-02T04:13:46Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] The thing is, they also _clearly_ identify as evangelical Christians. Any pretense to religious Judaism is knowingly calculated and deceptive. It’s a _tactic_, not a genuine self-identification. [/QUOTE] You’re quibbling. I would say that they are no more Jewish than Jerry Falwell. However, the question was “Does j4j recognize themselves as a jewish organazation?” and while they certainly claim (correctly) to be Evangelical Christians, they also claim to be a “Jewish” organization. However twisted we may view them, _their_ perspective is pretty clearly that they are (in some odd way) Jewish. (I suppose that you could posit a Scientology-like hierarchy in which the leaders are in on the scam while the lower ranks are simply deluded, but I am content to simply note their dishonesty without attempting to invest the issue with conspiracy theories.) ---
**Author:** ![copperwindow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@copperwindow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/copperwindow)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790/31 "2006-10-02T04:21:13Z")
[QUOTE=Excalibre] I’m not sure what relevance their claim carries, though. They’re not Jewish under any meaningful standard. I could declare myself Jewish right now, but it wouldn’t make it true. [/QUOTE] Says who? From what I can see, one group is saying that they’re Jewish, another is saying that they’re not. Whay signifies a Jewish organazation? ---
**Author:** ![copperwindow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@copperwindow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/copperwindow)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2006, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790/32 "2006-12-08T06:23:55Z")
Can a non-jew convert to j4j? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2006, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790/33 "2006-12-08T06:31:48Z")
Sorry if this is a diversion, but is an atheist born of devout Jewish parents Jewish? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2006, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790/34 "2006-12-08T06:43:20Z")
[QUOTE=glee] Sorry if this is a diversion, but is an atheist born of devout Jewish parents Jewish? [/QUOTE] Ethnically yes (and perhaps culturally), but religiously no. There are basically two definitions of “Jewish,” so that can lead to confusion. Most religions do not have the same name as the (majority) ethnicity of its adherents. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2006, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790/35 "2006-12-08T07:33:32Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Ethnically yes (and perhaps culturally), but religiously no. There are basically two definitions of “Jewish,” so that can lead to confusion. Most religions do not have the same name as the (majority) ethnicity of its adherents. [/QUOTE] That’s not entirely true - generally speaking, Jews accept the ethnically Jewish as being _a priori_ religiously Jewish. A Jew entering a synagogue for the first time in his life would still be counted in a minyan (the minimum of ten worshippers needed for a full service). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2006, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790/36 "2006-12-08T08:37:57Z")
[QUOTE=glee] Sorry if this is a diversion, but is an atheist born of devout Jewish parents Jewish? [/QUOTE] We have a Staff Report written by **C K Dexter Haven** that addresses the issue [Can you be an atheist and still be Jewish?](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mjewish.html) ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2006, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790/37 "2006-12-08T11:30:28Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] We have a Staff Report written by **C K Dexter Haven** that addresses the issue [Can you be an atheist and still be Jewish?](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mjewish.html) [/QUOTE] Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2006, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790/38 "2006-12-08T14:09:04Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] A Messianic Jew who does not worship Jesus would be a contradiction in terms. At the very least it would be somebody whose concept of the Messiah did not match either the Jewish or the Christian definitions. [/QUOTE] Partial counter-example: About 15 years ago, I was at a presentation by a representative of Jews for _Judaism_, a counter-missionary Messianic Judaism group. I don’t remember his discussion of what J4Judaism was about _as a faith_, the main point of his presentation being to educate us on standard missionary techniques. I also recall that several people heard “Messianic Judaism” and turned into raving loons at the speaker, showering him with such rage – and on Shabbat, in the Hillel house’s chapel no less! As it turned out, the speaker was used to such matters as an occupational hazard. ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2006, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790/39 "2006-12-08T15:27:35Z")
I worked with a guy who grew up a Jew and who had converted to Christianity through Jews for Jesus. Not for me to GQ say who is a Jew and who is not and who is a Christian and who is not. What I can offer is anecdotally I cannot see any practical difference between this fella and Falwell/Robertson. He was super aggressive believing RCs, Anglicans, and Presbyterians & anyone who did not literally believe the Bible was doomed to hell - he was fairly sophisticated about it and wrapped it well couched it well in “I would hate to see you in Hell” attitude and in time we eventually agreed to disagree, he pretty much dropped it - he still sends me family/parenting 700 clubby type pamphlets from time to time. I didn’t know the Jews were saved within the Covenant theology - I don’t recall him ever saying that - & in fact he had pretty standard Pauline thought re Women and Homosexuality so I wonder how “practiced” that is- what I heard was pretty standard evangelical (and anti-ecumenical) fare. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2006, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790/40 "2006-12-08T16:03:29Z")
There is no real doubt what J4J is - an organization based in evangelical Christianity aimed at converting Jews. Their particular _tactic_ is to elide the distinction between Jews and Christians, something which is aided by three things: 1. the fact that Judaism can be in ways both an ethnicity and a religion; 2. the fact that Christianity can easily be thought (if one ignores a couple of thousand years of history) as simply an alternative sect of Judaism; and 3. There is no central authority which can “lay down the law” as to who is or is not a Jew. Can’t speak for all Jews, but I think most find them sort of annoying and cult-like. If Jews wanted to be Christians, I think they would rather do so outright. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790.md?page=3)