Jews For Jesus

Although you’re mostly right, Jesus did say/teach a few things that were certainly “new”. But yes, in general, the Teachings of Jesus weren’t a lot different from Hillel.

Certainly, Jews- even very Orthodox Jews can and have beleived in a given person being “the Messiah”, without getting much more than eye-rolling from amoung the other Jews. It seems, however, that once that person had died, the continuing beleif that that person was the “Messiah” starts getting the beleiver further and further from “being a (religous) Jew”.

Here’s one Rabbi’s answer as to when Christian deviated from being Jews:

"Yet there are limits to pluralism, beyond which a group is schismatic to the point where it is no longer considered Jewish. For example, everyone considers Messianic Judaism and belief in Buddah as outside of the Jewish sphere.

Historically, any Jewish group which denied the basic principles of Jewish tradition – Torah and Mitzvah-observance – ultimately ceased to be part of the Jewish people. The Saducees and the Karites, for instance, refused to accept certain parts of the Oral Law, and soon after broke away completely as part of the Jewish People. The Hellenists, secularists during the Second Temple period, also soon became regarded as no longer “Jewish.” Eventually, these groups vanished completely.

Early Christians were the original “Jews for Jesus.” They accepted the Divine revelation of the Torah, but not it’s eternal, binding nature. Initially, these Jewish “reformers” were reliable in their Kashrut, and counted in a Minyan. But the turning point came when Paul, realizing that Jews wouldn’t accept the concept of a dead Messiah, opened up membership to non-Jews. At that point, these “Jews” experienced a total severing of Jewish identity. "

In other words- the Apostles that beleived that Jesus (before the Crucifixion) was the Messiah were still 100% Jewish.

This Rabbi disagrees:
http://www.bethhillel.com/whoisajew.htm
"
these “attackers” have wrongly characterized us as Christians whose service has “Jewish trappings” that “dishonor our own belief.” Nothing could be farther from the truth. We are Jews who worship the God of Israel as our ancestors did. In fact, our brand of Judaism dates back to the first century, when Messianic Jews were called “Nazarenes” and were a recognized branch of Judaism. This recognition occurred almost 2,000 years before Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist or Humanistic Judaism was birthed.

We are Torah observant, Shabbat-keeping, kosher-eating Messianic Jews who believe that the prophecies contained in the Hebrew Scriptures were fulfilled by Yeshua Ha Maschiach (Salvation from the “anointed one” in Hebrew and “Jesus” in English). …By Their definition of who is a Jew, (born of a Jewish mother, not converted to another religion) King David would not be Jewish. His great grandmother was a shiksa (Gentile) named Ruth. Throughout Scripture Jewishness was passed from the father, not the mother. The founders of the state of Israel when asked, “Who is a Jew” said “Anyone who is foolish enough to want to be.” …
Within Judaism today there is much difference in belief and practice. For example reform Judaism does not believe that the Torah is the inspired Word of G-d. Instead they call it man’s search for G-d. Humanistic and Reconstructionist Judiasm isn’t sure there is a G-d. Do these positions deny them the right to be called Jews? If not, why not? Who decides? After all, Torah and the G-d of Israel are two of the core elements of Judaism. How can you deny Torah and G-d and still be a Jew? Most Reform Reconstructionist and Humanistic Jews do not keep kosher in accordance with the requirements of Torah --does this mean they are no longer Jewish? The Reform Movement just recently adopted a position that embraces and recognizes same sex relationships. This is clearly against what Torah teaches—yet there is no cry to remove their Jewisness. The Lubbovitch Sect of Hasidic Orthodox Jewry believes that their departed grand Rabbi, Menachem Schneerson, is the Messiah. For several years they have prayed by his grave and still wait for his resurrection. Mainstream Judaism still considers the Lubbovitchers to be Jewish. Why then are Messianic Jews denied the right to believe that Yeshua is the Messiah foretold in the Tanakh, and still be Jews? Why are Messianic Jews told they are “no longer Jewish”. What is the difference between Messianic Jews and Lubbovitchers? The answer, of course, is Yeshua (Jesus). Just the name of Jesus alone conjures up memories of death and persecution perpetrated “in the name of Christ” against the Jewish people over the last 1,700 years.

Unknowledgeable Jews believe that once a Jew believes in Yeshua he becomes a Christian and is no longer Jewish. It is interesting to note that in Israel, the Chief Rabbi, who is ultra-orthodox, has recently proclaimed that only Orthodox Judaism is real Judaism and that all the remaining branches are “imposters”. This pronouncement would strip ninety percent of American Jews of their Jewish heritage if the Grand Rabbi’s position is accepted. Just because someone says it doesn’t make it correct."

The Rabbi makes a good point about the Lubbovitch Sect- even though many mainstream Jews roll their eyes when this sect continues to claim that Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson (1902-1994) is the Messiah- I don’t see any (including the Cheif Rabbi in Jerusalem) ruling that they are no longer Jews, as has been done with those that think Yeshua is the Messiah. The line seems to be a bit fuzzy. :smiley:

Here’s a Rabbi that has the very best answer of all:
http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=5649
"Rabbi Greenberg suggested the dispute be tabled until the Messiah arrives. When the Messiah comes, Jews and Christians “can ask him if this is his first coming or his second,” finally putting the issue to rest."
:cool: :smiley:

This Rabbi disagrees:
http://www.bethhillel.com/whoisajew.htm
"
these “attackers” have wrongly characterized us as Christians whose service has “Jewish trappings” that “dishonor our own belief.” Nothing could be farther from the truth. We are Jews who worship the God of Israel as our ancestors did. In fact, our brand of Judaism dates back to the first century, when Messianic Jews were called “Nazarenes” and were a recognized branch of Judaism. This recognition occurred almost 2,000 years before Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist or Humanistic Judaism was birthed.

We are Torah observant, Shabbat-keeping, kosher-eating Messianic Jews who believe that the prophecies contained in the Hebrew Scriptures were fulfilled by Yeshua Ha Maschiach (Salvation from the “anointed one” in Hebrew and “Jesus” in English). …By Their definition of who is a Jew, (born of a Jewish mother, not converted to another religion) King David would not be Jewish. His great grandmother was a shiksa (Gentile) named Ruth. Throughout Scripture Jewishness was passed from the father, not the mother. The founders of the state of Israel when asked, “Who is a Jew” said “Anyone who is foolish enough to want to be.” …
Within Judaism today there is much difference in belief and practice. For example reform Judaism does not believe that the Torah is the inspired Word of G-d. Instead they call it man’s search for G-d. Humanistic and Reconstructionist Judiasm isn’t sure there is a G-d. Do these positions deny them the right to be called Jews? If not, why not? Who decides? After all, Torah and the G-d of Israel are two of the core elements of Judaism. How can you deny Torah and G-d and still be a Jew? Most Reform Reconstructionist and Humanistic Jews do not keep kosher in accordance with the requirements of Torah --does this mean they are no longer Jewish? The Reform Movement just recently adopted a position that embraces and recognizes same sex relationships. This is clearly against what Torah teaches—yet there is no cry to remove their Jewisness. The Lubbovitch Sect of Hasidic Orthodox Jewry believes that their departed grand Rabbi, Menachem Schneerson, is the Messiah. For several years they have prayed by his grave and still wait for his resurrection. Mainstream Judaism still considers the Lubbovitchers to be Jewish. Why then are Messianic Jews denied the right to believe that Yeshua is the Messiah foretold in the Tanakh, and still be Jews? Why are Messianic Jews told they are “no longer Jewish”. What is the difference between Messianic Jews and Lubbovitchers? The answer, of course, is Yeshua (Jesus). Just the name of Jesus alone conjures up memories of death and persecution perpetrated “in the name of Christ” against the Jewish people over the last 1,700 years.

Unknowledgeable Jews believe that once a Jew believes in Yeshua he becomes a Christian and is no longer Jewish. It is interesting to note that in Israel, the Chief Rabbi, who is ultra-orthodox, has recently proclaimed that only Orthodox Judaism is real Judaism and that all the remaining branches are “imposters”. This pronouncement would strip ninety percent of American Jews of their Jewish heritage if the Grand Rabbi’s position is accepted. Just because someone says it doesn’t make it correct."

The Rabbi makes a good point about the Lubbovitch Sect- even though many mainstream Jews roll their eyes when this sect continues to claim that Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson (1902-1994) is the Messiah- I don’t see any (including the Cheif Rabbi in Jerusalem) ruling that they are no longer Jews, as has been done with those that think Yeshua is the Messiah. The line seems to be a bit fuzzy. :smiley:
[/QUOTE]

Heh, that guy uses all three of the points I made in the post above yours. :smiley:

The second source quoted by DrDeth sounds to me strongly like a straw man argument… except for this bit.:

Last I checked, belief in Jesus (under any name) was the defining element of Christianity. I would like to see zev’s opinion on this (checks watch) come Sunday.

For my NIS 2, calling Jesus “Yeshua” is a deliberate obfuscation – but this position is GD, and this thread is currently still in GQ.

For the record, the “Rabbi” quoted by DrDeth is no Rabbi at all but a Christian minister. His CV lists nothing but Christian Bible colleges.

In addition to that, this:

Is a completely false statement. Either Barsky doesn’t actually know anything about Jewish theology or he’s being dishonest. In point of fact, it directly contradicts Jewish theology to worship ANY messiah, even the real one. The Jewish Messiah is not God. Worshipping any human at all (even the Messiah) puts one firmly outside the framework of Jewish theology and worship.

Barsky’s assertion that Jews who believe in their own theology are “unknowledgeable” is either embarrasingly ignorant or insulting to the point that it borders on antisemitism.

Looking at that statement again, belief in the Divine status of any person, or in any person in history (to date) being the Redeemer, doesn’t automatically make someone a follower of that particular faith; most faiths have some form of conversion procedure and ritual. So the source in question is using some version of appeal to overstatement. What’s the proper term for the logical fallacy in use here?

OTOH, belief in any Divinity other than our Divinity, or in any historical person being the Redeemer, is a violation of what little Jewish dogma there is.

Spokespeople for Jewish-targeting missionary groups rarely, in my little research, are ignorant. The nature of the groups they work for suggests a certain deliberateness in their approach.

  1. The definition of who is- and who is not- a “Rabbi” is tied in with who is- and who isn’t- a Jew. Thus, saying Rabbi Dr. David Barsky “no Rabbi at all but a Christian minister” is just saying “he’s no Jew he’s a Christian” which is the exact point being debated.

  2. The statement is not false. Nor does the statement say what you say it does. The statement mentions *nothing at all * about “worshipping” a Messiah/Yeshua. It uses the word “believes”. Most Jews believe in a Messiah- someday. Some Jews (at least most still consider them Jews) *believe * that Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson (1902-1994) is the Messiah. The Rabbi Simmons (in my first cite) accepts that those who believed that the still-living Jesus was the Messiah were still Jews.

I grant you that further reading of Rabbi Dr. David Barsky’s site does strongly indicate that they “worship” Jesus. And, that the worship of any man is anthetical to accepted Rabbinical teachings. However, Barsky’s cite seems to think that Jesus stopped being a mortal man after death and became one with the Diety. It’s a hairsplit to be sure, but Rabibical arguments are legendary in their hairspliting.

But in any case, the line you quote “Unknowledgeable Jews believe that once a Jew believes in Yeshua he becomes a Christian and is no longer Jewish” is correct, and isn’t a lie. In fact, Rabbi Shraga Simmons felt he had to mention that point- "Though you are correct, that conversion to another religion is ineffective. According to Jewish law, a person is always Jewish - regardless of whether they reject their heritage, ignore it, or practice another religion. In the book of Joshua 7:11, G-d declares that “Israel has sinned” due to a severe transgression done by the nation. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 44a) explains: Even though Israel has sinned, God still calls they by the name ‘Israel.’ In other words, they are still considered Jews. And that is how we know that a Jew is always a Jew no matter what. "

Thus- that knowledgeable Jew stated that belief in any religion doesn’t end ones “Jewishness”.

He’s not a Jewish Rabbi. He’s not ordained by any Jewish school and I doubt he’s received any of tbe training or passed any of the tests necessary to obtain semicha. He can appropriate the word if he wants, but it’s just a bit of subterfuge on his part. He has no Jewish Rabbinic perspective to offer, but only an Evangelical Christian one passed through a phony pose of Jewish Rabbinic authority.

  1. Any belief that Jesus (Yeshua) was the Messiah conflicts with Jewish theology regardless of whether he is worshipped as God. He didn’t fulfill the requirements. End of story.

There is nothing unJewish about believing a living person might become the Messiah, but once that person dies without fulfilling the requirements. That’s it. Very few Jews still believe that Rabbi Schneerson is the Messiah and those who do are roundly criticized as being in theological error by the vast majority.

Even this little dodge (which sounds like it may be a little bit of fancy footwork based on some Kabbahlistic statements about tzadiks) does not get him around the fact that Jesus did not fulfill the Jewish expectations for the Messiah and even tzadiks are not supposed to be worshipped.

Where Barsky is being deceptive is when he tries to imply that one can “believe in Yesua” an still be practicing Judaism as a religion. The fact they are not losing their ethnic identification as Jews is neither here nor there. He’s trying to insinuate that paracticing Christianity is not theologically heretical to Judaism and he’s either ignorant or lying when he says that.

Circular reasoning. “He’s not a Jewish Rabbi as he’s not Jewish as he believes in Jesus and Jews don’t believe in Jesus”. Who’s to say he’s not a rabbi- the same dudes that say he’s not a Jew? Do you know he wasn’t born to a Jewish mother? (which would make him Jewish under one definition of the term). And, he *is * a teacher, which is the definition of the word “Rabbi”. Hillel “wasn’t ordained by
any Jewish school or passed any of the tests necessary to obtain semicha” (of course, those schools and tests came after Hillel died, so it’d be difficult :stuck_out_tongue: ), but Hillel is considered one of the greatest Jewish Rabbis of all time.

Who decides who is a Rabbi? The Chief Rabbi in Jerusalem? He has said that only Orthodox Jews are really Jews, so by his ruling some 90% of the Rabbis in American aren’t Rabbis either. :dubious:

“Roundly criticized as being in theological error”? yes, true- but few Jews will say that the Lubbovitchers aren’t Jewish. “Wrong headed Jews”- sure, maybe even “Crazy Jews”, but still Jews.

Note that I am not agreeing with Rabbi Dr. David Barsky. But other than the “born of a Jewish mother” heritage definition of a Jew, there is no definition of what a Jew (for religous purposes) is- other than the Chief Rabbi’s, which most everyone roundly rejects- even most Jews. Thus, even though I agree that Rabbi Dr. David Barsky’s beliefs go against the tenents of Mainstream Judaism, they are not really further out that the Lubbovitch Jews- who are still Jews. Certainly, I’d accept calling Barskey’s Church as a sect, even a radical sect, but they still could be a Jewish sect.

Can a muslim convert to j4j?

Can? I don’t know of any reasons why a Muslim would not be able to convert to J4J’s brand of Christianity.

Would? A Muslim is not in J4J’s target demographic, so I wouldn’t sit around waiting for this to happen.

Okay then, an atheist whose isn’t “jewish”, whatever that means?

This actually leads to a better question; can a non-Jew be converted to a Jew?

Certainly. Unlike Christianity and Islam, Judaism is not a proselytizing religion and, generally, they make conversion a bit of a challenge (so that converts do not simply decide it’s “not for them” and quit after conversion), but Judaism very definitely accepts converts.

Same answer: I know of no reason why a person who is neither religiously nor ethnically Jewish would be unable to convert to J4J’s brand of Christianity, but such a person is not in the target demographic.

To fill in the gap in my answer – does anybody know of any rules in J4J on who they will permit to join?

Well, it’s Monday, not Sunday, but here I am.

In short, if someone is a Jew, then they are always a Jew. Period. There is no way to “convert out” to another religion - if a Jew were to embrace Christianity, then he or she are still Jewish.

That being said, a Jew who converts to another religion is regarded as non-Jewish with regard to certain halachos - if he is a shochet (ritual slaughterer), then his meat is no longer considered kosher, etc. But the fact remains that he is still considered Jewish and all of the laws of Judaism still apply to him (i.e. I still couldn’t offer him a ham sandwich, etc.).

It should be noted, WRT Jews for Jesus, that there have been Jews in the past about whom it was thought that they were the messiah. Jesus was one. So was Bar Kochba. Shabatai Zevi was another. In our own generation, there are still people who (mistakenly) believe that Rabbi Schneerson was the messiah. But there is a fundamental difference between the latter people and Jesus which makes believing in Jesus as the messiah much more problematic from a halachic standpoint. The difference is the deification of Jesus.

Rabbi Akiva, living a century after Jesus, thought that Bar Kochba was the messiah. When Bar Kochba was killed, he abandoned the idea. However, in no way was Bar Kochba deified. No one said that Bar Kochba was God, or the Son of God, or part of a triune god, or any other such notion. No one disputed the fact that Bar Kochba was a normal mortal human being born of normal human parents in the old-fashioned way who was fallible, human and mortal. The same could be said about most of the other “messiahs” that have plauged our past. That, however, cannot be said about Jesus.

The primary problem with believing in Jesus as the messiah is that (Unitarians and other small sects excepted) Christians have deified Jesus to the point where he is God (or a part of God, etc.). Such a belief is a violation of the commandment against idolatry. This is a far worse problem than believing in a false messiah - there are severe penalties for idolatry. Believing in a false messiah may earn you some scorn and ridicule, but that’s about it.

Therefore, someone who today believes that Rabbi Schneerson is the messiah is simply mistaken. He could equally believe the moon is made of green cheese; but neither belief involves a violation of a commandment. Believing that Jesus is the Son of God (which is a core belief in the Jews for Jesus crowd), however, places one squarely in violation of the second of the Ten Commandments.

That aside, my main problem with Jews for Jesus is not that they are out there prostelytizing - heck, Christians have been doing that for centuries. My problem is that they are being purposely deceiptful by disguising Christianity as Judaism. If you want to “sell” Christianity and find converts to it, by all means go ahead and do so — but do it based on the merits of Christianity. Don’t disguise it as Judaism.

Zev Steinhardt

Thanks, Zev! :cool: