# Jews in WW2 Draft? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327 "2012-08-13T01:20:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/61 "2012-08-14T20:22:43Z")
nm. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/62 "2012-08-14T20:24:12Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > When someone like TOMNDEBB throw a around a phrase like “an awful lot”, I believe it to be misleading, and not an accurate reflection of reality. Tom’s rhetoric most likely got away from him and the percentage of Jews serving in the armed forces was most likely the same as the percentage of Jews in the population. Now, that probably meant that there were tens of thousands of Jews in the war if not in the European theater, and that means that there were “an awful lot” of Jews, if not necessarily an awful lot by percentage. Of course, you didn’t just challenge that but went much further. The next step would be to preemptively hop up on the cross and complain of accusations of anti-Semitism which aren’t actually made and… oh… > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > Yet, no one ever calls these things into question, for fear of being labeled. As soon as that happens, everyone tries to explain why they aren’t anti-Jewish > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > Why would it be interesting to see the numbers who volunteered vs drafted? Honestly, you wouldn’t find the answer to this question interesting? So you have no answer to the question, or at least none you’d like to explicitly elaborate on. As for the Holocaust, it wasn’t a widely known fact prior to the end of the war, so your major premise about people being willing to “give up their freedom” to fight against that is somewhat moot if nobody volunteering could have made that informed decision. And you still don’t indicate exactly what implications you mean to be casting about what the volunteer/draft ratio would reveal. But you have preemptively complained about accusations of anti-Semitism. > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > we can deal with any embarrassment of cultural cowardice later. “Cultural cowardice”, eh? You might wanna elaborate on that one. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/63 "2012-08-14T20:25:41Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > When someone like TOMNDEBB throw a around a phrase like “an awful lot”, I believe it to be misleading, and not an accurate reflection of reality. A most logical conclusion. > [@](#): > > Yet, no one ever calls these things into question, for fear of being labeled, Fortunately we have steadfast posters like you who are unafraid of asking the tough questions. You might try getting answers [here](http://www.jwv.org/). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/64 "2012-08-14T20:57:59Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > I see the crazies beat me to it Regardless of what your views of Jewish participation in WWII might be, you will not call other posters “crazies” in Great Debates. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/65 "2012-08-14T20:58:26Z")
According to this cite (though how they derived the numbers I have no idea): > [@](#): > > After the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, the United States declared war on Japan and Germany. Over 550,000 Jewish men and women responded to America’s call for the Armed Forces in World War II. About 11,000 were killed; over 40,000 were wounded. > > There were three recipients of the Medal of Honor; 157 received the Distinguished Service Medals and Crosses, which included Navy Crosses, and over 1,600 were awarded the Silver Star. Over 52,000 other decorations, citations and awards were given to Jewish heroes. > > President Franklin D. Roosevelt praised the fighting abilities and service of Jewish men and women. > > General Douglas MacArthur in one of his speeches said, “I am proud to join in saluting the memory of fallen American heroes of the Jewish faith.” [http://www.aleph-institute.org/history-of-jews-in-the-us-military.html](http://www.aleph-institute.org/history-of-jews-in-the-us-military.html) This is out of a Jewish population in America of around 4.7 million in the 1940s. > **[Total Jewish Population in the United States](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-population-in-the-united-states-nationally)** > > Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism. That gives a “military participation ratio” of around 1 in 8.5. In contrast, the general US population during the 1940s was approx. 132,000,000, and the total number of servicemen and womem was aprox. 16,000,000: [http://www.historyshots.com/usarmy/backstory.cfm](http://www.historyshots.com/usarmy/backstory.cfm) That gives a “military participation ratio” or around 1 in 8.25. In sum, the numbers of Jews participating in the military was practically indistinguishable percentage-wise from the number of Americans participating iin the military generally. Whether you were a Jew or not, your chances of serving in the US military during WW2 were the same. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/66 "2012-08-14T21:05:39Z")
Also, draft vs. enlistment totals aren’t very useful at determining things. The enlistment rate varied over the course of the war, and some young men were told to wait until they were drafted. You’d have to analyze the different time periods during the war and the ages of the enlistees and draftees. And you’d probably end up with nothing worth noting about the religious affiliation of them. Also, you have to remember that there needed to be an consistent distribution of Jews, Italians, and guys named Tex. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/67 "2012-08-14T21:12:02Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > What is your definition of “An awful lot”? Well, WWII saw [300,000 Jewish service personnel with 11,000 of them dying](http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_Jewish-American_soldiers_were_killed_or_wounded_in_action_in_World_War_2). That seems like a fairly large number, to me. Anecdotally, I know that a very large number, (regardless how one chooses to define it) served in Europe. Since my statement was simply an indication that I was unaware of any effort to send Jewish soldiers exclusively to the Pacific, (as ethnic Japanese were sent almost exclusively to Europe), I am not sure why you think that your question had any meaning besides an effort to be snide. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/68 "2012-08-14T21:15:27Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am not sure why you think that your question had any meaning besides an effort to be snide. Without any further elaboration on his part, it seems to have been an attempt to swing the debate over to the topic of “cultural cowardice”. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/69 "2012-08-14T21:16:49Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Well, WWII saw [300,000 Jewish service personnel with 11,000 of them dying](http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_Jewish-American_soldiers_were_killed_or_wounded_in_action_in_World_War_2). That seems like a fairly large number, to me. > > Anecdotally, I know that a very large number, (regardless how one chooses to define it) served in Europe. Since my statement was simply an indication that I was unaware of any effort to send Jewish soldiers exclusively to the Pacific, (as ethnic Japanese were sent almost exclusively to Europe), I am not sure why you think that your question had any meaning besides an effort to be snide. Slight correction - your cite states that 300,000 Jewish servicepeople died on the allied side. It doesn’t have a figure for how many served in the US military (so far, the only figure I have seen is the 550,000 posted above). However once slices it, there is no doubt that “a lot” served - and many of them died. ---
**Author:** ![Vaevictis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f04885/32.png) [@Vaevictis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vaevictis)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/70 "2012-08-14T21:19:10Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Also, draft vs. enlistment totals aren’t very useful at determining things. The enlistment rate varied over the course of the war, and some young men were told to wait until they were drafted. You’d have to analyze the different time periods during the war and the ages of the enlistees and draftees. And you’d probably end up with nothing worth noting about the religious affiliation of them. > > Also, you have to remember that there needed to be an consistent distribution of Jews, Italians, and guys named Tex. Don’t forget that the WWII TO&E for a US combat infantry squad also included at least one guy from Brooklyn. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/71 "2012-08-14T21:36:27Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Slight correction - your cite states that 300,000 Jewish servicepeople died on the allied side. It doesn’t have a figure for how many served in the US military (so far, the only figure I have seen is the 550,000 posted above). I noticed that discrepancy and have been looking for specifics to clear it up. [One site I found](http://www.algemeiner.com/2011/07/18/jews-in-the-military/) made a couple of interesting observations: The miliatry, itself, does not seem have kept religious census records, so all numbers are based on outside estmiates or projections; Jews have frequently declined to specify their religion when serving, (_reasons could range from secular vs religious sympathies in their personal lives to a desire to not be hassled or persecuted while in the service–anti-semitism was still a mainstay of social life in the U.S. in the 1940s_); and the site notes (without citation) that the U.S. popuation was 3.3% Jewish while the military was 4.23% Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/72 "2012-08-14T21:37:30Z")
Just for the sake of adding an anecdote: I don’t know if they enlisted or were drafted, but both of my grandfathers were Jewish and both served in the war. One served in combat in Europe and the other was a drill sergeant stateside. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/73 "2012-08-14T21:49:22Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I noticed that discrepancy and have been looking for specifics to clear it up. > > [One site I found](http://www.algemeiner.com/2011/07/18/jews-in-the-military/) made a couple of interesting observations: The miliatry, itself, does not seem have kept religious census records, so all numbers are based on outside estmiates or projections; Jews have frequently declined to specify their religion when serving, (_reasons could range from secular vs religious sympathies in their personal lives to a desire to not be hassled or persecuted while in the service–anti-semitism was still a mainstay of social life in the U.S. in the 1940s_); and the site notes (without citation) that the U.S. popuation was 3.3% Jewish while the military was 4.23% Jewish. Well, in addition, I would imagine a certain number did not want to serve as openly Jewish for fear that they may be taken prisoner by the Nazis and treated accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/74 "2012-08-14T22:36:52Z")
On the one hand, we have: > [@FinnAgain](#): > > . > > So you have no answer to the question, or at least none you’d like to explicitly elaborate on. As for the Holocaust, it wasn’t a widely known fact prior to the end of the war, so your major premise about people being willing to “give up their freedom” to fight against that is somewhat moot if nobody volunteering could have made that informed decision. And you still don’t indicate exactly what implications you mean to be casting about what the volunteer/draft ratio would reveal. And yet on the other hand we have: > [@Malthus](#): > > Well, in addition, I would imagine a certain number did not want to serve as openly Jewish for fear that they may be taken prisoner by the Nazis and treated accordingly. Just so this doesn’t get out of hand (which might be impossible), these two quotes are at odds with each other. For the historians out there, which was it? Did the Jews in America not know of what was happening to their European families? Or did they and the rest of the world know what was happening? I have read both theories, but it always seems to just reflect the POV of the author/speaker. I’m asking a serious question here. Is there no answer? > [@tomndebb](#): > > Regardless of what your views of Jewish participation in WWII might be, you will not call other posters “crazies” in Great Debates. > > [/Moderating] I wasn’t referring to any poster in particular, and I think you know that. But my apologies to anyone that was personally offended. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/75 "2012-08-14T22:51:32Z")
Swooping in on this thread. Jews were drafted like anyone else. Any who objected to fighting for religious reasons could apply for concientous objector status, as could anyone else. Also, probably a good source for this thread: National Museum of American Jewish Military History > **[Home - National Museum of American Jewish Military History](https://nmajmh.org/)** > > National Museum of American Jewish Military History Exhibits Support Stories Our Stories Jews in the American Military Core Exhibit Cialis from Canada to USA Hall of Heroes Jewish Recipients of the Medal of Honor Generic Cialis Fallen Heroes... ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/76 "2012-08-14T22:51:41Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > I wasn’t referring to any poster in particular, and I think you know that. But my apologies to anyone that was personally offended. There is no way I would “know that.” You made a nasty crack about “the crazies” and then quoted posts to this thread. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/77 "2012-08-14T22:56:44Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > Just so this doesn’t get out of hand (which might be impossible), these two quotes are at odds with each other. For the historians out there, which was it? Did the Jews in America not know of what was happening to their European families? Or did they and the rest of the world know what was happening? The two quotes are not at odds. EVERYONE knew that the Jews were being persecuted with many/most being sent to concentration camps. No Jewish soldier would want to be singled out for that sort of abuse if captured. What was far less known were the death camps and the extent to which they were being used. Information regarding the camps had been smuggled out to the intelligence services, with some informed war commanders recognizing what that meant and some failing to believe the reports because of the enormity of a situation that had never occurred on such a scale before. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/78 "2012-08-14T23:02:07Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > On the one hand, we have: > > And yet on the other hand we have: > > Just so this doesn’t get out of hand (which might be impossible), these two quotes are at odds with each other. For the historians out there, which was it? Did the Jews in America not know of what was happening to their European families? Or did they and the rest of the world know what was happening? > > I have read both theories, but it always seems to just reflect the POV of the author/speaker. I’m asking a serious question. You have misinterpreted Malthus’ post if you think it somehow doesn’t square up with Finn’s. People were very aware the Nazis were persecuting Jews and were virulently anti-Semitic so Jews could certainly expect the Nazis to treat them badly, but that’s hardly the same as knowing about the Holocaust. Edit: Tom beat me to it. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/79 "2012-08-14T23:08:28Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > On the one hand You still trying to avoid answering what your goal was with your questions, what your implications were/are and what your curiosity about “cultural cowardice” relates to. And no, Malthus’ point is in no way, shape or form at variance with mine. That the Holocaust was happening was not common knowledge. That Jews were being mistreated by the Nazis, was. So now, why don’t you get back to what your implications were and what you feel about “cultural cowardice”. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/80 "2012-08-14T23:08:45Z")
On preview I see other posters have clarified this, so I’ll just add that [the mass media](http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005182) played a role in the public being slow to realize that killing of Jews was occurring on a mass scale. \*"During the era of the Holocaust, the American press did not always publicize reports of Nazi atrocities in full or with prominent placement. For example, the New York Times, the nation’s leading newspaper, generally deemphasized the murder of the Jews in its news coverage. The US press had reported on Nazi violence against Jews in Germany as early as 1933. It covered extensively the Nuremberg Laws of 1935 and the expanded German antisemitic legislation of 1938 and 1939. The nationwide state-sponsored violence of November 9-10, 1938, known as Kristallnacht (Night of Crystal), made front page news in dailies across the US as did Hitler’s infamous prediction, expressed to the Reichstag (German parliament) on January 30, 1939, that a new world war would mean the annihilation of the Jewish “race.”… As the magnitude of anti-Jewish violence increased in 1939-1941, many American newspapers ran descriptions of German shooting operations, first in Poland and later after the invasion of the Soviet Union. The ethnic identity of the victims was not always made clear. Some reports described German mass murder operations with the word “extermination.” As early as July 2, 1942, the New York Times reported on the operations of the killing center in Chelmno, based on sources from the Polish underground. The article, however, appeared on page six of the newspaper. Although the New York Times covered the December 1942 statement of the Allies condemning the mass murder of European Jews on its front page, it placed coverage of the more specific information (released by the World Jewish Congress on Nazi implementation of plans to exterminate European Jews) on page ten, significantly minimizing its importance."\* [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327.md?page=5)