# Jews in WW2 Draft? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327 "2012-08-13T01:20:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/121 "2012-08-15T16:52:18Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > No, it is not a stupid, insulting comment. Jews have for centuries been a nation that lived without a country. Some groups of Jews behaved as other ethnic groups did. They adopted local ways and very quickly assimilated into the local culture. Other groups of Jews maintained their own culture. They very carefully refused to assimilate. There are several problems with this claim. For starters, yes, for centuries Jews in both the Islamic world and medieval Europe were “a nation without a country” and didn’t “assimilate”, but that wasn’t by choice. They weren’t allowed to assimilate, were drastically restricted in the businesses they were allowed to run, wear they could live and even what they could wear. So yes, the Jews of Morocco and Iraq didn’t “assimilate” but when they weren’t even allowed to live next to Muslims, had their houses marked with signs identifying them as Jews, were required to wear specified distinctive clothing, and weren’t even allowed to ride horses of course they didn’t assimilate. The same was true of the Jews of Poland and Russia, though they were also treated vastly worse than the Jews of Morocco and Iraq who at least had a legal proscribed rank in those societies, though it was a very low rank. In the places where they were allowed to assimilate(France after Napoleon opened up the ghettos, modern Great Britain, Germany, and of course the United States) the overwhelming majority did assimilate. > [@](#): > > Like the Amish or some other groups, **orthodox Jews** have fought to preserve their own way of life. The Jews who refuse to “assimilate” in the US aren’t “orthodox Jews” but Hasidic Jews or “Ultra-Orthodox Jews”. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/122 "2012-08-15T17:29:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Wearing a funny type of hat is not, perforce, proof of disloyalty or lack of patriotism. Ha! I ask you, is [this](http://www.lynx-lair.com/zen/images/mc/GC100.jpg) a patriotic American? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/123 "2012-08-15T17:50:31Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > He said they _didn’t_ do it through a hole in the sheets. I know that. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/124 "2012-08-15T18:40:54Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Ha! I ask you, is [this](http://www.lynx-lair.com/zen/images/mc/GC100.jpg) a patriotic American? :dubious: She only puts curses on foreigners. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/125 "2012-08-15T20:09:37Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Ha! I ask you, is [this](http://www.lynx-lair.com/zen/images/mc/GC100.jpg) a patriotic American? :dubious: Only if there’s an ICBM in there. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/126 "2012-08-15T21:41:07Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > No, it is not a stupid, insulting comment. Yes it is, and unless I’m mistaken, this is not the first time you’ve gotten behind such a comment on this message board. Allegations such as **Stink** made are classical anti-Semitic tropes, used for literally millenia to persecute and justify the murder of Jews and as others have pointed out, ironically a cornerstone of the Nazis’ propaganda campaign against the “Jewish threat.” By excusing such bigoted calumnies, you are either condoning or supporting anti-Semitism, and you should cut it out. > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Other groups of Jews maintained their own culture. They very carefully refused to assimilate. First, the Jews who “very carefully refused to assimilate” are a splinter population. **Stink** ’s comments were about Jews in toto. Second, even if we were to credit that the ultra-orthodox have “very carefully refused to assimilate”, that does not at all necessitate the conclusion that they are not loyal to their homes. The idea of Jews as a perpetual Other in Host Countries is, itself, an ancient anti-Semitic trope. Third, the focus on Jews and Jews alone is bizarre. In America, for example, numerous groups have maintained identifiable cultural/ethnic/religious markers, from numerous Asian groups to numerous European groups, and so on. When’s the last time you heard someone being accused of Dual Loyalty because they worse a shirt that said “Kiss me, I’m Irish” or cooked alfredo sauce like their grandma made back in the old country? > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Like the Amish or some other groups, orthodox Jews have fought to preserve their own way of life. I’d wager you’d be unable to spot an Orthodox Jew out of a lineup of average Americans, to say nothing of Israeli Orthodox Jews. I get to choose the photo of an Orthodox Jew and a gallery of, say, 99 other photos. That’s about a fair proportional representation of American society. Want to put a wager on it? I’m sure we could come up with some impartial arbiters and a good set of protocols, and then I could take your money. (Protocols. Get it, get it?) > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Still **lance’s** lack of understanding of what they are doing is breathtaking. **Lance** misunderstood nothing. How many Jewish Dopers, exactly, would you require to chime in to support the fact that **Stink** ’s claims were indeed stupid, ignorant and insulting? So far I’ve counted quite a few of us, and we all seem to be in agreement, as are most of the gentiles. That alone should tell you something as the rule is almost always “two Jews in the room, three opinions.” But maybe it’s because we’re not real Americans, Canadians, etc… and we’re just showing our Dual Loyalty to Global Jewry first and foremost, eh? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/127 "2012-08-15T23:34:36Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > How many Jewish Dopers, exactly, would you require to chime in to support the fact that **Stink** ’s claims were indeed stupid, ignorant and insulting? I’m a goy and I couldn’t believe people still thought like that and that **Stink** “went there.” Maybe he’s from some place ethnically isolated and believes any crap he hears because he lacks experience and information. Or even a TV. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/128 "2012-08-15T23:40:35Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I’m a goy and I couldn’t believe people still thought like that and that **Stink** “went there.” Maybe he’s from some place ethnically isolated and believes any crap he hears because he lacks experience and information. Or even a TV. I don’t understand where anyone hears these things except from obviously bigoted sources. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/129 "2012-08-16T02:11:31Z")
We are way off the OP, but I believe we have different definitions of “assimilating”. My Ex, the Evile Mrs. Plant v.2.0, thought assimilating was to become Reform. Being in public for the Reform movement in 19the century Germany meant Theater, Opera, dinner parties. Assimilating for Jews in Poland and Russia meant associating with guys who regularly became drunk and beat their wives. There was some music that went on in Central Europe , though, Klesmer. (sp) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/130 "2012-08-16T02:34:58Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The Jews who refuse to “assimilate” in the US aren’t “orthodox Jews” but Hasidic Jews or “Ultra-Orthodox Jews”. And even many Jews roll their eyes at the “Lubavitchers”. Those groups arent any more a symptom of Jews failing to assimilate than the Quakers are of Christians failing to assimilate. Every religion has those odd sects and fringees. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/131 "2012-08-16T02:44:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And even many Jews roll their eyes at the “Lubavitchers”. > > Those groups arent any more a symptom of Jews failing to assimilate than the Quakers are of Christians failing to assimilate. Every religion has those odd sects and fringees. True enough, but not all or even most Hasidic Jews are “Lubavitchers”. In fact the largest Hasidic sect aren’t Lubavitchers/Chabad but the Satmars who despise each other. Also, when you refer to “Quakers” I think you were thinking of the Amish or the Mennonites because the Quakers certainly have assimilated. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/132 "2012-08-16T02:48:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Also, when you refer to “Quakers” I think you were thinking of the Amish or the Mennonites because the Quakers certainly have assimilated. I wouldn’t call Quakers assimilated. They were already English when the religion started in England, and they were already here in America when the nation was formed. There wasn’t anything for them to change. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/133 "2012-08-16T02:51:41Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > True enough, but not all or even most Hasidic Jews are “Lubavitchers”. In fact the largest Hasidic sect aren’t Lubavitchers/Chabad but the Satmars who despise each other. > > Also, when you refer to “Quakers” I think you were thinking of the Amish or the Mennonites because the Quakers certainly have assimilated. 1. Yes, I knew that. 2. Good point. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/134 "2012-08-16T13:05:42Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yes it is, and unless I’m mistaken, this is not the first time you’ve gotten behind such a comment on this message board. > Third, the focus on Jews and Jews alone is bizarre. In America … I appreciate a good old fashioned \*ad hominem \*with the best of them, but your effort would be stronger with a cite. The origin of this discussion was the refusal of some groups of Jews to serve in the Israeli military. Since Judaism is not a “traditional peace church,” I wondered if some sort of accommodation was made for religious Jews in the US in WW2 as it has been made in Israel itself in more modern times. A reasonable question, methinks. Thanks for avoiding it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/135 "2012-08-16T13:21:28Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > The origin of this discussion was the refusal of some groups of Jews to serve in the Israeli military. Since Judaism is not a “traditional peace church,” I wondered if some sort of accommodation was made for religious Jews in the US in WW2 as it has been made in Israel itself in more modern times. t. Actually, an earlier cite was "\*Ben-Gurion’s error Its founding fathers, socialist-Zionists in the main, thought that the vestiges of the old religion would soon disappear. David Ben-Gurion, Israel’s first prime minister, held that the 2,000 years of diasporic Judaism were a deviation from the true fulfilment of the Jewish ethos. The Talmud (Judaism’s ancient body of law and lore) was too casuistic, he felt; the new state must hark back to the Bible. But he agreed to exempt a few hundred Talmud students from army service, confident they were a dying breed.\* So, it was “_asking_ for a exemption for a handful” as opposed to “_refusing_ to serve”. And we have answered your question: No. They could volunteer to serve in a non-combat role. Jackmanni posted "\*Here’s a source on draft exemptions in WWII. The only religious category I see is one exempting ministers and divinity students - no specific religions cited. In WWI, exemptions affected several religions in particular: “Conscientious objector exemptions were allowed for the Amish, Quakers and Church of the Brethren only. All other religious and political objectors were forced to participate. Some 64,700 men claimed conscientious objector status; local draft boards certified 57,000, of whom 30,000 passed the physical and 21,000 were inducted into the Army. About 80% of the 21,000 decided to abandon their objection and take up arms, but 3,989 drafted objectors refuse to serve. Most belong to historic pacifist denominations, especially Quakers, Mennonites, and Moravian Brethren, as well as a few Seventh Day Adventists and Russellites (Jehovah’s witnesses). About 15% were religious objectors from non-pacifist churches”\* I supposed some Jews would be _ministers and divinity students._ ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/136 "2012-08-16T13:22:04Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I wouldn’t call Quakers assimilated. They were already English when the religion started in England, and they were already here in America when the nation was formed. There wasn’t anything for them to change. Yeah, I know some Quakers. They’re completely like anyone else, except they go to a Quaker church instead of a different church. We’ve even had a Quaker president. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/137 "2012-08-16T13:28:35Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > The origin of this discussion was the refusal of some groups of Jews to serve in the Israeli military. Since Judaism is not a “traditional peace church,” I wondered if some sort of accommodation was made for religious Jews in the US in WW2 as it has been made in Israel itself in more modern times. . Accommodations aren’t made for “traditional peace churches” either. I don’t think any group enjoys special accommodation. Someone who doesn’t want to serve for religious reasons must apply, as an individual, for conscientious objector status. They may be granted CO status for many reasons, but not necessarily based on their membership in a particular religion or church. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/138 "2012-08-16T13:33:42Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I’d wager you’d be unable to spot an Orthodox Jew out of a lineup of average Americans, to say nothing of Israeli Orthodox Jews. I get to choose the photo of an Orthodox Jew and a gallery of, say, 99 other photos. That’s about a fair proportional representation of American society. Want to put a wager on it? I’m sure we could come up with some impartial arbiters and a good set of protocols, and then I could take your money. > **[Jew or Not Jew: Choosing the Chosen People](http://www.jewornotjew.com/)** > > JewOrNotJew.com: Your source for who is Jewish and who is not (borrowed from the very old Saturday Night Live sketch with a game show called “Jew - Not a Jew” where contestants had to guess to win fabulous prizes) > [@](#): > > (Protocols. Get it, get it?) I’ll bet he does. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/139 "2012-08-16T13:40:41Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Yeah, I know some Quakers. They’re completely like anyone else, except they go to a Quaker church instead of a different church. > > We’ve even had a Quaker president. Two actually. The Quakers often are less than thrilled. Herbert Hoover, and Richard Nixon. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327/140 "2012-08-16T13:42:50Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Two actually. The Quakers often are less than thrilled. Herbert Hoover, and Richard Nixon. Didn’t know about Hoover. I guess they’ve successfully downplayed him. Yeah, not the best record. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-in-ww2-draft/631327.md?page=8)