Jews in WW2 Draft?

Great Debates
121

There are several problems with this claim. For starters, yes, for centuries Jews in both the Islamic world and medieval Europe were “a nation without a country” and didn’t “assimilate”, but that wasn’t by choice.

They weren’t allowed to assimilate, were drastically restricted in the businesses they were allowed to run, wear they could live and even what they could wear.

So yes, the Jews of Morocco and Iraq didn’t “assimilate” but when they weren’t even allowed to live next to Muslims, had their houses marked with signs identifying them as Jews, were required to wear specified distinctive clothing, and weren’t even allowed to ride horses of course they didn’t assimilate.

The same was true of the Jews of Poland and Russia, though they were also treated vastly worse than the Jews of Morocco and Iraq who at least had a legal proscribed rank in those societies, though it was a very low rank.

In the places where they were allowed to assimilate(France after Napoleon opened up the ghettos, modern Great Britain, Germany, and of course the United States) the overwhelming majority did assimilate.

The Jews who refuse to “assimilate” in the US aren’t “orthodox Jews” but Hasidic Jews or “Ultra-Orthodox Jews”.

122

Ha! I ask you, is this a patriotic American? :dubious:

123

I know that.

124

She only puts curses on foreigners. :smiley:

125

Only if there’s an ICBM in there.

126

Yes it is, and unless I’m mistaken, this is not the first time you’ve gotten behind such a comment on this message board. Allegations such as Stink made are classical anti-Semitic tropes, used for literally millenia to persecute and justify the murder of Jews and as others have pointed out, ironically a cornerstone of the Nazis’ propaganda campaign against the “Jewish threat.” By excusing such bigoted calumnies, you are either condoning or supporting anti-Semitism, and you should cut it out.

First, the Jews who “very carefully refused to assimilate” are a splinter population. Stink’s comments were about Jews in toto.
Second, even if we were to credit that the ultra-orthodox have “very carefully refused to assimilate”, that does not at all necessitate the conclusion that they are not loyal to their homes. The idea of Jews as a perpetual Other in Host Countries is, itself, an ancient anti-Semitic trope.
Third, the focus on Jews and Jews alone is bizarre. In America, for example, numerous groups have maintained identifiable cultural/ethnic/religious markers, from numerous Asian groups to numerous European groups, and so on. When’s the last time you heard someone being accused of Dual Loyalty because they worse a shirt that said “Kiss me, I’m Irish” or cooked alfredo sauce like their grandma made back in the old country?

I’d wager you’d be unable to spot an Orthodox Jew out of a lineup of average Americans, to say nothing of Israeli Orthodox Jews. I get to choose the photo of an Orthodox Jew and a gallery of, say, 99 other photos. That’s about a fair proportional representation of American society. Want to put a wager on it? I’m sure we could come up with some impartial arbiters and a good set of protocols, and then I could take your money.
(Protocols. Get it, get it?)

Lance misunderstood nothing.
How many Jewish Dopers, exactly, would you require to chime in to support the fact that Stink’s claims were indeed stupid, ignorant and insulting? So far I’ve counted quite a few of us, and we all seem to be in agreement, as are most of the gentiles. That alone should tell you something as the rule is almost always “two Jews in the room, three opinions.” But maybe it’s because we’re not real Americans, Canadians, etc… and we’re just showing our Dual Loyalty to Global Jewry first and foremost, eh?

127

I’m a goy and I couldn’t believe people still thought like that and that Stink “went there.” Maybe he’s from some place ethnically isolated and believes any crap he hears because he lacks experience and information. Or even a TV.

128

I don’t understand where anyone hears these things except from obviously bigoted sources.

129

We are way off the OP, but I believe we have different definitions of “assimilating”.
My Ex, the Evile Mrs. Plant v.2.0, thought assimilating was to become Reform.

Being in public for the Reform movement in 19the century Germany meant Theater, Opera, dinner parties.

Assimilating for Jews in Poland and Russia meant associating with guys who regularly became drunk and beat their wives.
There was some music that went on in Central Europe , though, Klesmer. (sp)

130

And even many Jews roll their eyes at the “Lubavitchers”.

Those groups arent any more a symptom of Jews failing to assimilate than the Quakers are of Christians failing to assimilate. Every religion has those odd sects and fringees.

131

True enough, but not all or even most Hasidic Jews are “Lubavitchers”. In fact the largest Hasidic sect aren’t Lubavitchers/Chabad but the Satmars who despise each other.

Also, when you refer to “Quakers” I think you were thinking of the Amish or the Mennonites because the Quakers certainly have assimilated.

132

I wouldn’t call Quakers assimilated. They were already English when the religion started in England, and they were already here in America when the nation was formed. There wasn’t anything for them to change.

133

  1. Yes, I knew that.

  2. Good point.

134

I appreciate a good old fashioned *ad hominem *with the best of them, but your effort would be stronger with a cite.

The origin of this discussion was the refusal of some groups of Jews to serve in the Israeli military. Since Judaism is not a “traditional peace church,” I wondered if some sort of accommodation was made for religious Jews in the US in WW2 as it has been made in Israel itself in more modern times.

A reasonable question, methinks. Thanks for avoiding it.

135

Actually, an earlier cite was "*Ben-Gurion’s error

Its founding fathers, socialist-Zionists in the main, thought that the vestiges of the old religion would soon disappear. David Ben-Gurion, Israel’s first prime minister, held that the 2,000 years of diasporic Judaism were a deviation from the true fulfilment of the Jewish ethos. The Talmud (Judaism’s ancient body of law and lore) was too casuistic, he felt; the new state must hark back to the Bible. But he agreed to exempt a few hundred Talmud students from army service, confident they were a dying breed.*

So, it was “asking for a exemption for a handful” as opposed to “refusing to serve”.

And we have answered your question: No. They could volunteer to serve in a non-combat role.

Jackmanni posted "*Here’s a source on draft exemptions in WWII. The only religious category I see is one exempting ministers and divinity students - no specific religions cited. In WWI, exemptions affected several religions in particular:

“Conscientious objector exemptions were allowed for the Amish, Quakers and Church of the Brethren only. All other religious and political objectors were forced to participate. Some 64,700 men claimed conscientious objector status; local draft boards certified 57,000, of whom 30,000 passed the physical and 21,000 were inducted into the Army. About 80% of the 21,000 decided to abandon their objection and take up arms, but 3,989 drafted objectors refuse to serve. Most belong to historic pacifist denominations, especially Quakers, Mennonites, and Moravian Brethren, as well as a few Seventh Day Adventists and Russellites (Jehovah’s witnesses). About 15% were religious objectors from non-pacifist churches”*

I supposed some Jews would be ministers and divinity students.

136

Yeah, I know some Quakers. They’re completely like anyone else, except they go to a Quaker church instead of a different church.

We’ve even had a Quaker president.

137

Accommodations aren’t made for “traditional peace churches” either. I don’t think any group enjoys special accommodation. Someone who doesn’t want to serve for religious reasons must apply, as an individual, for conscientious objector status. They may be granted CO status for many reasons, but not necessarily based on their membership in a particular religion or church.

138

(borrowed from the very old Saturday Night Live sketch with a game show called “Jew - Not a Jew” where contestants had to guess to win fabulous prizes)

I’ll bet he does.

139

Two actually. The Quakers often are less than thrilled. Herbert Hoover, and Richard Nixon.

140

Didn’t know about Hoover. I guess they’ve successfully downplayed him. Yeah, not the best record.