# Jews, Mormons, and Posthumous Conversion: Am I Missing Something? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2006, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-mormons-and-posthumous-conversion-am-i-missing-something/370741 "2006-08-30T02:30:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-mormons-and-posthumous-conversion-am-i-missing-something/370741/21 "2006-08-30T16:55:13Z")
I’d like to go ahead and clarify that I don’t think this is a good thing the Mormons are doing. It’s stupid, arrogant, offensive, and pointless. I only think that in the end, it makes no difference and doesn’t hurt anybody. The people who care have a right to care, but there are way more important things in life. “Sticks and stones can break my bones, but what some idiot writes in a secret book about my long dead relatives will never hurt me.” That is pretty much my position. ---
**Author:** ![FatBaldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecd19e/32.png) [@FatBaldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FatBaldGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-mormons-and-posthumous-conversion-am-i-missing-something/370741/22 "2006-08-30T17:01:30Z")
This is possibly one of the most misunderstood aspects of LDS doctrine. It stems from several core beliefs: [ul] [li]God loves ALL of his children and would like them all to return to Him.[/li][li]Baptism, by properly constituted authority, is an essential ordinance for salvation. (See John 3:3-5)[/li][li]Many people have died without the opportunity to hear and understand the gospel or to be baptized while on earth.[/li][li]These people will be taught the gospel in the afterlife, and will have the opportunity to either accept it or reject it.[/li][QUOTE=I Peter 4:6] For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. [/QUOTE] [li]Baptism is a “physical” ordinance, and can only be performed while on earth.[/li][li]People on earth can be baptized by “proxy” on behalf of dead people[/li][li]If the dead people reject the baptism, it is of no effect, and we are not “forcing” anyone to become Mormons.[/li][/ul] There is evidence that this principle of baptism for the dead was practiced even by the early Christians. In the middle of a discourse on the resurrection, Paul makes passing reference to this practice as an argument in favor of the resurrection. > [@I Corinthians 15:29](#): > > Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-mormons-and-posthumous-conversion-am-i-missing-something/370741/23 "2006-08-30T17:08:38Z")
> [@FatBaldGuy](#): > > There is evidence that this principle of baptism for the dead was practiced even by the early Christians. In the middle of a discourse on the resurrection, Paul makes passing reference to this practice as an argument in favor of the resurrection. Wow. 2,000 years and we _still_ can’t agree on why they’re doing it… ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-mormons-and-posthumous-conversion-am-i-missing-something/370741/24 "2006-08-30T17:14:05Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I’d like to go ahead and clarify that I don’t think this is a good thing the Mormons are doing. It’s stupid, arrogant, offensive, and pointless. I only think that in the end, it makes no difference and doesn’t hurt anybody. The people who care have a right to care, but there are way more important things in life. “Sticks and stones can break my bones, but what some idiot writes in a secret book about my long dead relatives will never hurt me.” That is pretty much my position. But, see, it is _very_ hurtful to Jewish people and to other people who are _convinced_, with great justification, that their dead relatives, leaders, and co-religionists would _not_ want it done. It is disrespectful to the memory of the dead, and very painful to the living. So while it may be your opinion that “there are way more important things in life,” others might well feel differently. Indeed, you might feel differently if your relatives had died for a faith that the Mormons were disrespecting after their death. FATBALDGUY, the LDS may believe that baptism is an essential ordinance for salvation, but Jewish people do not. Especially in the case of people who died because they were Jews, it is presumptuous and offensive for the LDS to take it upon itself to substitute its judgment for that of the deceased. How would Mormons feel if the shoe was on the other foot? How would a devout Mormon feel if the Jews instituted a ceremony whereby a Jew could, on the dead Mormon’s behalf, repudiate the teachings of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon and essentially acknowledge that the LDS faith is erroneous? “On behalf of Rebecca Smith, I, Leah Levi, hereby acknowledge that Joseph Smith was a charlatan and Jesus Christ was _not_ the son of God.” Heck, the Jews say, don’t sweat it – you can disavow this repudiation ceremony if you want! But we’ll do it for you anyway! How is it possible to not see the problem with this? No one should be allowed to do “for” a second person something that the second person would not want done. ---
**Author:** ![FatBaldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecd19e/32.png) [@FatBaldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FatBaldGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-mormons-and-posthumous-conversion-am-i-missing-something/370741/25 "2006-08-30T17:36:12Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > FATBALDGUY, the LDS may believe that baptism is an essential ordinance for salvation, but Jewish people do not. Especially in the case of people who died because they were Jews, it is presumptuous and offensive for the LDS to take it upon itself to substitute its judgment for that of the deceased. Nowhere did I say anything about substituting my/our judgement for the deceased, or anything about taking away their right to choose. Try to look at it from this perspective. There are two possible scenarios here. [ol] [li]The LDS belief is wrong. In this case, we are wasting time and effort that will not effect your great-grandpa one way or the other. Any baptisms or other ordinances that we do are totally worthless, and nobody in heaven even cares about it.[/li][li]The LDS belief is correct. Perhaps great-grandpappy gets to the “Spirit World” and says, “Gee, maybe I was wrong after all.” In this case, he will be glad that someone on earth cares enough to allow him to receive salvation.[/li][/ol] Believe me, we’re not trying to offend anyone’s sensibilities, or to insult their ancestors in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-mormons-and-posthumous-conversion-am-i-missing-something/370741/26 "2006-08-30T17:39:27Z")
> [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > **Malthus** , I don’t say that people don’t care, only that they shouldn’t care. Your analogy is totally off the mark. Posthumous baptism hardly means that people are going around saying such-and-such about so-and-so. We’re talking about an annotation in a book that basically no one is reading but the Mormons. You’d never even hear about it if your great-grandmother were baptized this way. It’s too trivial to worry about, particularly if you’re not Mormon and think this practice of theirs is a little silly anyway. You misunderstand the basis of my objection. I’m not saying you think people _don’t care_, I’m saying that it doesn’t lie in your mouth (or mine) to decide whether they “shouldn’t care” because it is “too trivial to worry about” and the offensive practice is “silly”. I may think that the customs or beliefs of others - Mormons or Jews - are “trivial” and/or “silly”, but that is not a good excuse for not respecting them. Many people have very strong beliefs about the treatment of their ancestors. I don’t myself share those beliefs, but I think it is not tactful or respectful to make light of them, let alone directly insult them by attempting to appropriate them for an entirely different faith. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-mormons-and-posthumous-conversion-am-i-missing-something/370741/27 "2006-08-30T17:45:16Z")
> [@FatBaldGuy](#): > > Nowhere did I say anything about substituting my/our judgement for the deceased, or anything about taking away their right to choose. > > Try to look at it from this perspective. There are two possible scenarios here. > [ol] > [li]The LDS belief is wrong. In this case, we are wasting time and effort that will not effect your great-grandpa one way or the other. Any baptisms or other ordinances that we do are totally worthless, and nobody in heaven even cares about it.[/li][li]The LDS belief is correct. Perhaps great-grandpappy gets to the “Spirit World” and says, “Gee, maybe I was wrong after all.” In this case, he will be glad that someone on earth cares enough to allow him to receive salvation.[/li][/ol] > > Believe me, we’re not trying to offend anyone’s sensibilities, or to insult their ancestors in any way. I believe that you (meaning here the Mormon Church) are not trying to offend anyone. Nevertheless, people are now telling you that you are, inadvertantly, giving offence. Would it not be the case that to proceed with this plan _in full knowledge that it is offensive_ would not be a good idea, whatever the theological justification? What was not intentionally offensive conduct becomes so when one persists in it despite notice. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-mormons-and-posthumous-conversion-am-i-missing-something/370741/28 "2006-08-30T18:01:22Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > How would Mormons feel if the shoe was on the other foot? How would a devout Mormon feel if the Jews instituted a ceremony whereby a Jew could, on the dead Mormon’s behalf, repudiate the teachings of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon and essentially acknowledge that the LDS faith is erroneous? “On behalf of Rebecca Smith, I, Leah Levi, hereby acknowledge that Joseph Smith was a charlatan and Jesus Christ was _not_ the son of God.” Heck, the Jews say, don’t sweat it – you can disavow this repudiation ceremony if you want! But we’ll do it for you anyway! How is it possible to not see the problem with this? I love this – the Jews and the Mormons battling it out in the afterlife for possession of the immortal soul. **Malthus** , I accept your distinction. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-mormons-and-posthumous-conversion-am-i-missing-something/370741/29 "2006-08-30T18:11:20Z")
> [@FatBaldGuy](#): > > If the dead people reject the baptism, it is of no effect, and we are not “forcing” anyone to become Mormons. How would one know? ---
**Author:** ![FatBaldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecd19e/32.png) [@FatBaldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FatBaldGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-mormons-and-posthumous-conversion-am-i-missing-something/370741/30 "2006-08-30T18:21:40Z")
Let’s try an analogy here. Assume that on a far off island there is a buried treasure. Enough to make one fabulously wealthy. Enough for everyone in the world to have a share, if they want it. It’s not out in plain sight, and you need a map to find it. There are dozens, maybe even hundreds, of maps that claim to lead to the treasure, but only one of them is the real map. The proponents of the various maps all think of each other as liars and frauds, and are convinced that their map is the right one. John arrives on the island with his map in his hand, and discovers that the landmarks on his map aren’t even close to what he sees on the island. Sam is standing there on the shore, and offers to let John have a copy of the real map. All of John’s friends and relatives back on the mainland are convinced that Sam and his ilk are a bunch of rotten scoundrels, and won’t have anything to do with their kind. Is it wrong for Sam to offer his map to John? Would it be ethical for Sam to withhold the map because John’s friends are convinced it’s the wrong one? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-mormons-and-posthumous-conversion-am-i-missing-something/370741/31 "2006-08-30T18:35:51Z")
[QUOTE=FatBaldGuy] Nowhere did I say anything about substituting my/our judgement for the deceased, or anything about taking away their right to choose. Try to look at it from this perspective. There are two possible scenarios here. [ol] [li]The LDS belief is wrong. In this case, we are wasting time and effort that will not effect your great-grandpa one way or the other. Any baptisms or other ordinances that we do are totally worthless, and nobody in heaven even cares about it.[/li][li]The LDS belief is correct. Perhaps great-grandpappy gets to the “Spirit World” and says, “Gee, maybe I was wrong after all.” In this case, he will be glad that someone on earth cares enough to allow him to receive salvation.[/li][/ol] How about the case where a very religious family whose child is a friend of a Jewish or atheist kid, decides to arrange a baptism for the young kid while he is at their house supposedly playing? You could argue that if you are wrong the baptism won’t mean anything, the kid could reject it later, and that you may be saving his soul. If someone had tried to do that to my kid, and I found out about it, I’d baptise them with cement galoshes. > [@](#): > > Believe me, we’re not trying to offend anyone’s sensibilities, or to insult their ancestors in any way. You may not be trying, but you are succeeding very well. My ancestors, at great personal risk, rejected Christianity. I’m sure you are very sincere in your belief, but I think it is a pile. My daughter had a lot of LDS friends, and I made a special effort to never question their faith in front of them. You could offer me and my ancestors the same courtesy. You religionists are going to turn me into **Der Trihs** irf you’re not careful. ---
**Author:** ![FatBaldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecd19e/32.png) [@FatBaldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FatBaldGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-mormons-and-posthumous-conversion-am-i-missing-something/370741/32 "2006-08-30T19:28:22Z")
And why are the ads on this page “Look Sexy Naked”, “2006 Video Music Awards”, “Jennifer Love Hewitt” and “Elisha Cuthbert Ringtone”??? ---
**Author:** ![FatBaldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecd19e/32.png) [@FatBaldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FatBaldGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-mormons-and-posthumous-conversion-am-i-missing-something/370741/33 "2006-08-30T19:40:21Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] > [@FatBaldGuy](#): > > How about the case where a very religious family whose child is a friend of a Jewish or atheist kid, decides to arrange a baptism for the young kid while he is at their house supposedly playing? You could argue that if you are wrong the baptism won’t mean anything, the kid could reject it later, and that you may be saving his soul. **Voyager** , I agree with you on this. And I don’t think you will find anyone in the LDS, or most other churches, who would sanction a practice like this. In fact it is a policy in our church that anyone under the age of 18 must have parental consent before we will allow them to be baptized. In the case of baptism for the dead, it is a totally different story. We don’t go down to the graveyard and dig up corpses to be buried. We don’t say “John Doe is a Mormon now, and there’s nothing you can do about it.” Is it really any different from someone going into their church and praying for the soul of someone of a different faith? Is this also considered offensive? ---
**Author:** ![FatBaldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecd19e/32.png) [@FatBaldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FatBaldGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-mormons-and-posthumous-conversion-am-i-missing-something/370741/34 "2006-08-30T19:43:12Z")
> [@FatBaldGuy](#): > > We don’t go down to the graveyard and dig up corpses to be **buried**. corpses to be **baptized** :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-mormons-and-posthumous-conversion-am-i-missing-something/370741/35 "2006-08-30T19:56:53Z")
> [@FatBaldGuy](#): > > Is it really any different from someone going into their church and praying for the soul of someone of a different faith? Is this also considered offensive? I think few would be offended by Mormons praying for the souls of their ancestors. If it is “not different”, why not simply do that instead? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-mormons-and-posthumous-conversion-am-i-missing-something/370741/36 "2006-08-30T21:45:44Z")
> [@FatBaldGuy](#): > > Let’s try an analogy here. Assume that on a far off island there is a buried treasure. Enough to make one fabulously wealthy. Assume that nobody knows if the treasure actually exists, and that maybe John is tired of people offering him maps and shovels when he’s pretty sure there is nothing out there but sand. Maybe John has other priorities and finds their fascination with the treasure, and the efforts to get everyone else to join the search, to be a little crass. Perhaps if you look at it that way, you’ll see where we’re coming from. The bottom line is that, while I understand that many people of faith feel that they’re just trying to help, and that some of them feel ethically obligated to “help,” that the entire attitude is really presumptuous. Although the baptism procedure is meaningless, the presumptuousness and arrogance are very off-putting. As several posters have already said, with Holocaust victims, you’re already talking about people who were murdered for having the wrong religion. The idea that such people need to be proselytized to after they’ve suffered and died for that religion is offensive. I note here that other religions have beliefs that I find just as ridiculous. My understanding is that, according to Islam, all people are born Muslims and most are just not raised properly. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-mormons-and-posthumous-conversion-am-i-missing-something/370741/37 "2006-08-30T22:15:23Z")
See, this is the kinda stupid stuff that buying into Great Sky Fairies gets you into … ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-mormons-and-posthumous-conversion-am-i-missing-something/370741/38 "2006-08-30T22:29:02Z")
> [@FatBaldGuy](#): > > **Voyager** , I agree with you on this. And I don’t think you will find anyone in the LDS, or most other churches, who would sanction a practice like this. In fact it is a policy in our church that anyone under the age of 18 must have parental consent before we will allow them to be baptized. > > In the case of baptism for the dead, it is a totally different story. We don’t go down to the graveyard and dig up corpses to be buried. We don’t say “John Doe is a Mormon now, and there’s nothing you can do about it.” > > Is it really any different from someone going into their church and praying for the soul of someone of a different faith? Is this also considered offensive? The offensive part is not the dipping a kid into water. No one would mind if a kid who got dirty got a bath. What we do mind is not respecting the wishes of the person when alive, and the wishes of the person’s descendants. Praying for someone is not the same - it is about the beliefs of the person praying, not the person prayed for. I can see you don’t get it - I suppose it has been too long since you people were oppressed. But I assure you my ancestors knew all about Christianity, just like the sheep know all about the wolves. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-mormons-and-posthumous-conversion-am-i-missing-something/370741/39 "2006-08-30T22:36:36Z")
> [@FatBaldGuy](#): > > Nowhere did I say anything about substituting my/our judgement for the deceased, or anything about taking away their right to choose. > > Try to look at it from this perspective. There are two possible scenarios here. > [ol] > [li]The LDS belief is wrong. In this case, we are wasting time and effort that will not effect your great-grandpa one way or the other. Any baptisms or other ordinances that we do are totally worthless, and nobody in heaven even cares about it.[/li][li]The LDS belief is correct. Perhaps great-grandpappy gets to the “Spirit World” and says, “Gee, maybe I was wrong after all.” In this case, he will be glad that someone on earth cares enough to allow him to receive salvation.[/li][/ol] > > Believe me, we’re not trying to offend anyone’s sensibilities, or to insult their ancestors in any way. or 1. Not only is the LDS belief wrong, but the gods of the afterlife (being different gods than any currently worshipped god here on earth) are deeply sensitive to the fact that still, nobody on earth (and about 7 other equally backward planets in their jurisdiction) have correctly translated the inspired scripture and thus reject all souls that have been tainted with any of the false religions. Those souls that have not been tainted are left in the waiting room until they figure it out on their own. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-mormons-and-posthumous-conversion-am-i-missing-something/370741/40 "2006-08-30T22:37:19Z")
> [@FatBaldGuy](#): > > Let’s try an analogy here. Assume that on a far off island there is a buried treasure. Enough to make one fabulously wealthy. Enough for everyone in the world to have a share, if they want it. It’s not out in plain sight, and you need a map to find it. There are dozens, maybe even hundreds, of maps that claim to lead to the treasure, but only one of them is the real map. > > The proponents of the various maps all think of each other as liars and frauds, and are convinced that their map is the right one. > > John arrives on the island with his map in his hand, and discovers that the landmarks on his map aren’t even close to what he sees on the island. Sam is standing there on the shore, and offers to let John have a copy of the real map. John takes a look at Sam’s map, and sees it is even further off than his. Sam says, "but you see this tree is really a building, and this river is a road, if you displace it by 200 meters, and the outline of the shore is exact if you go back in time 2,000 years. Meanwhile Fred walks up. John and Sam both offer their maps and their explanations of why they are the true map, even if they don’t match reality. Fred looks at them, laughs, and says he had an extensive airborne mapping done of the entire island, looking for a mass of metal the size of the supposed treasure, found none, and both of them and all the other map holders can bloody well bugger off. He will sell them shoves, a sucker being born every minute and all. 🙂 Moral: Every map holder thinks they have the true map, but it is always treasure tomorrow, never treasure today. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-mormons-and-posthumous-conversion-am-i-missing-something/370741.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-mormons-and-posthumous-conversion-am-i-missing-something/370741.md?page=3)