# Jews take over East Ramapo School District and Defund It **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 27, 2014, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-take-over-east-ramapo-school-district-and-defund-it/699714 "2014-09-27T13:30:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2014, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-take-over-east-ramapo-school-district-and-defund-it/699714/41 "2014-09-27T23:20:44Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > So if someone says “The Germans bail out the Greeks to prevent a default on Greek bonds” they are in the wrong? It’s not like _all_ Germans did that, only the German central bank. You wanna live in a world where over-specificity is compulsory even when everyone knows what is being discussed? Do you make it a personal goal to see just how far you can go being disingenuous? Context is important in all conversations. (First, you blew it by inserting the word “the” into your purported headline.) However, even getting past that, there are multiple differences. Greece and Germany are nations that can, indeed, act as recognizable independent agents. The fact that you used the nationalities, together, is a clear sign that you were talking about the political nations. (And, of course, the economic situations of both nations over the last few years would have provided a context that was immediately apparent to most readers.) Beyond that, there is already a meme that “Jews” are crafty, untrustworthy people. Using the word Jews as posted in the title evokes a rather different image than using the name of a country to identify who provided aid to another country. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2014, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-take-over-east-ramapo-school-district-and-defund-it/699714/42 "2014-09-27T23:21:01Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > I should have been clearer. It’s hard to argue the former school board cared about ALL the children in the city given they were quite content to allow Jews to receive inferior educations so long as they kept paying taxes, didn’t cause trouble, and didn’t want any representation. Now, they are upset because their kids are getting short shrift when they had no problem with a status quo that did the same to others. I don’t think many people in this story have clean hands. The Hasidic kids were previously getting inferior educations by choice, and by their own design; they chose to send their kids to private schools that didn’t teach English and math. They had every right and option to send their kids to public school, but that they didn’t is not the fault of the public school parents. There is no being hoist on their own petard going on here. If they HAD sent their kids to public schools and then taken over the school board, I would have no problem with what they’ve done. Of course, had they done that, they wouldn’t have proceeded to purposely ruin the schools they were in charge of. They not only have no skin in the game, they have benefits to losing the game on purpose. Even other Orthodox Jewish groups are coming out against what this group did. ---
**Author:** ![callander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@callander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/callander)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2014, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-take-over-east-ramapo-school-district-and-defund-it/699714/43 "2014-09-27T23:44:56Z")
I do not know the specifics of this case, nor have I read through the entire thread yet, not sure that I will as it has gone from GD to the Pit. Selling under FMV done all day everyday. Not saying that makes it correct, by Jews and non Jews. Many here do not understand the Hasidic stream of schooling, not saying pro or con. ---
**Author:** ![callander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@callander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/callander)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-take-over-east-ramapo-school-district-and-defund-it/699714/44 "2014-09-27T23:47:12Z")
Sorry ran out of edit time. Pink yellow green with polka dots, people are people and do wacky s\*\*t. Wake up and stop blaming “the Jews”. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2014, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-take-over-east-ramapo-school-district-and-defund-it/699714/45 "2014-09-27T23:56:00Z")
> [@callander](#): > > I do not know the specifics of this case, nor have I read through the entire thread yet, not sure that I will as it has gone from GD to the Pit. > > Selling under FMV done all day everyday. Not saying that makes it correct, by Jews and non Jews. Does it happen every day including the appraiser that gave the low appraisal that the sale was based on pleading [guilty](http://www.lohud.com/story/news/crime/2014/07/28/east-ramapo-hillcrest-school-appraisal-probation-avi-vardi-sale/13271939/) for being bribed by the buyer? The courts stepped in and stopped the sale. This doesn’t [happen](http://www.rocklandtimes.com/2014/02/20/timelines-22014/) all day every day. ---
**Author:** ![callander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@callander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/callander)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-take-over-east-ramapo-school-district-and-defund-it/699714/46 "2014-09-28T00:00:23Z")
I have seen all sorts of stuff from corp. to divorce with the sale of property. Yes the courts are often involved. I might just be cynical though. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-take-over-east-ramapo-school-district-and-defund-it/699714/47 "2014-09-28T00:02:42Z")
> [@callander](#): > > I have seen all sorts of stuff from corp. to divorce with the sale of property. Yes the courts are often involved. Your implication above was that the sale at below market value might have been appropriate and above board, as this is sometimes appropriate. But, this is a settled issue in this case. The courts stepped in and said that it was not appropriate in this case. ---
**Author:** ![callander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@callander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/callander)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-take-over-east-ramapo-school-district-and-defund-it/699714/48 "2014-09-28T00:10:43Z")
I did not mean to imply anything was kosher with it, in fact I said I had not read the thread in its entirety, which includes any of the links. I probably shouldn’t even comment, as I don’t know much about this case. My point was one not need be a Jew to sell under FMV. But I won’t post here again without reading, cuz that makes me look sillyish. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-take-over-east-ramapo-school-district-and-defund-it/699714/49 "2014-09-28T00:11:39Z")
> [@callander](#): > > I did not mean to imply anything was **kosher** with it, in fact I said I had not read the thread in its entirety. I see what you did there!🙂 ---
**Author:** ![callander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@callander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/callander)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-take-over-east-ramapo-school-district-and-defund-it/699714/50 "2014-09-28T00:15:07Z")
Yuppers, thought you might catch that 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-take-over-east-ramapo-school-district-and-defund-it/699714/51 "2014-09-28T00:28:10Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > The Hasidic kids were previously getting inferior educations by choice, and by their own design; they chose to send their kids to private schools that didn’t teach English and math. Maybe by there parents’ choice, but not the kids. The school board, regardless of who is on it, has an obligation to ensure that the kids in their district receive a proper education. Looking the other way because they are not “their” kids is pretty disgraceful even if the kids’ parents are stupid. > [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > They had every right and option to send their kids to public school, but that they didn’t is not the fault of the public school parents. There is no being hoist on their own petard going on here. But you are ignoring that these schools are still by law under the purview of the BoE (AFAICT) and are required to provide a good education. They only got away with failing to meet that obligation because the Board looked the other way. Additionally, even home schooled kids are held to certain standards. > [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > If they HAD sent their kids to public schools and then taken over the school board, I would have no problem with what they’ve done. Of course, had they done that, they wouldn’t have proceeded to purposely ruin the schools they were in charge of. They not only have no skin in the game, they have benefits to losing the game on purpose. I agree, but what can be done about such a thing generally? Just to be clear, I think what they did in total was really scummy and immoral. But I am not sure, how you can require people who win valid elections to have skin in the game. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-take-over-east-ramapo-school-district-and-defund-it/699714/52 "2014-09-28T00:29:10Z")
If we say “Religious Extremists” instead of something anti-semitic, the OP conveys the issue best. It doesn’t matter Which house of prayer did this, but that A house of prayer did that makes this news. I believe that there was something equally as horrible in [Birmingham in the UK](http://bit.ly/1rlyFYP). ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-take-over-east-ramapo-school-district-and-defund-it/699714/53 "2014-09-28T00:59:47Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, it is not immaterial. > > To be accurate, you could have posted “A Jewish group takes over…” or “Jewish citizens of E. Ramapo take over…” or something similar. By using the unmodified term “Jews take over” you have, indeed, created the appearance that their action was driven by Judaism rather than by the concerns or desires of a local group. > > That you posted your rant in GD instead of the BBQ Pit is also a problem, but that one I can fix by moving this to the appropriate forum. > > [/Moderating] How was it a rant? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-take-over-east-ramapo-school-district-and-defund-it/699714/54 "2014-09-28T01:03:31Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > How was it a rant? Where was the debate? Were you expecting someone to come in and defend the takeover? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-take-over-east-ramapo-school-district-and-defund-it/699714/55 "2014-09-28T01:03:45Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, it is not immaterial. > > To be accurate, you could have posted “A Jewish group takes over…” or “Jewish citizens of E. Ramapo take over…” or something similar. By using the unmodified term “Jews take over” you have, indeed, created the appearance that their action was driven by Judaism rather than by the concerns or desires of a local group.[/Moderating] Wait, have you actually read the post or the articles before making your comments here? Do you think their actions **weren’t** motivated by Judaism? I’m very confused about what you’re saying here. I have no issue with the fact you can move posts as much as you want, this being one of the powers mods exercise and I frankly don’t care what forum this is in. But I don’t really understand why you’re acting like this is just some generic local concern and that is why a group of Orthodox Jews specifically selected a few prominent Hasidim to run for school board, take it over, and then structure things to their benefit. The entirety of their problem with the secular schools and school board was based on their religion. Like I said to another post, nowhere have I said “all Jews in the world do this” or did this, in fact by specifying this is “East Ramapo School District” I think it makes it hyper-obvious this pertains to local government, unless someone is of the impression that “East Ramapo School District” is not a local government body. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-take-over-east-ramapo-school-district-and-defund-it/699714/56 "2014-09-28T01:06:34Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Where was the debate? > Were you expecting someone to come in and defend the takeover? Do rants normally have OP saying stuff like: > [@](#): > > My hope is people have some strong opinions on this, I definitely do not like what the Jews have done in East Ramapo, but I also didn’t have the incensed fury most people I’ve spoken with about this appear to have over this topic. I was opening this up for a discussion, but I pointed out I don’t really get that mad about it. Most everyone I had spoken to about it outside of the Internet got furious about the issue for some reason–being more involved in local government I saw it as par for the course, where local government is permitted to misbehave, they will. There are a lot of posts in GD that are just opening things for discussion, like 90% of **BrainGlutton** ’s posts. I later do actually make my core argument: > [@](#): > > Yeah, this is precisely my opinion. I expect people to respond in predictable ways, and Jewish or religious or not, it’s a predictable response when State law allows local school districts to behave in this way. I’m actually already familiar with similar situations (but not involving private schools per se) with states that allow for small school districts that have lots of power. > > In States I’m familiar with, that allow for small school districts, you will see developers lay down basically from scratch a new town. All the houses are in the high dollar range, so when people move in and start incorporating the town there is no low income population. They then build a really good school district funded by their property taxes. However, often times schools in the same county in poor cities become ghettoized hell holes because there are no higher income taxpayers or high property value owners to contribute. I’ve talked about this before, and a response frequently is “Well, if one community wants to build better schools, why is that wrong?” > > My feeling is that public schools are supposed to be a sort of equalizer, rich people shouldn’t be able to flee from a school system with poor kids and set one up literally right next door in the same county. > > The States that get this issue right in my opinion are the ones where State funding is the larger share of school funds and where the smallest district that can exist by law are county school districts (coterminous with counties, obviously.) Further, the ones who really get it right have equalization protocols. So for example if County A is spending more than 10% per pupil above what the State average is, then it receives less State funds and more State funds go to other counties. What this does is take State tax revenue from that county and spreads them to the other counties. Which may seem unfair, but what it’s actually doing is forcing higher income counties to help the entire State out. A final pillar in doing well in this regard is a powerful State Schools Superintendent and State Board of Education, who are ready/willing to go in and take over school boards that are trying to freeload or destroy local education. I didn’t feel I should include that in the OP as I wanted to give others a moment to comment and such. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-take-over-east-ramapo-school-district-and-defund-it/699714/57 "2014-09-28T01:12:43Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > They are interrelated insomuch as they are all happening there, but I don’t see any reason as to why they shouldn’t be addressed separately. I see no reason why they should be addressed separately, we’re talking about the same story but now in three parts? That’s illogical. > [@](#): > > Yes, but there is little basis for a complaint that amounts to, “this process is bullshit because the other guy fairly received more votes than me”. The complaints seem to be against people exercising their constitutional rights as a voting bloc. I don’t think that opinion holds much weight. Just listen to the TAL episode. There are several exasperated people complaining about how hard they worked to get out the vote only to be bested the Hasids who always seemed to get more. I felt no sympathy for the people on TAL who complained about being outvoted, but I never even brought that up. > [@](#): > > Sure, but I don’t think any of those elected have done something analogous to that. No, because we wouldn’t allow that–but my point was that some things we do not allow democratic majorities to do, and I’d argue State standards need to be in place for quality of education and local school boards need to be held to those at the threat of takeover. > [@](#): > > Yes, and I think that is a separate issue with it’s own pros and cons. Ultimately though, I think forcing an insular community to participate in certain ways is often not worth the trouble as long as a minimum standard of respect for human rights is followed. I would agree, I’m generally okay with private schools and groups like the Amish–as long as the Amish actually let their kids go to school as long as they are supposed to (I believe until 8th grade or maybe 16.) > [@](#): > > Legally, what they are doing seems wrong. However, I don’t think it’s particularly wrong morally speaking. I would rather that happen than a special needs kid go without a proper education because his parents are religious nutjobs. Assuming the money is actually going to help the kid, the letter of the law is not my primary concern. I don’t have a problem with state funds going to private schools–Sweden does it for example and it works great. But I just was pointing out that is part of the story and the local school board previously wasn’t willing to bald-faced go against state law for understandable reasons. > [@](#): > > Well, your argument basically boils down to it not being a bid deal because they got caught prior to completing the act. The board was willing and ready to commit fraud. That is the biggest issue here, and the largest indictment of their leadership. Failing to increase spending enough will always come down to ideology on some level. No one should be okay with bald corruption. I think more it was that it’s not that interesting at this point, they were already caught, some persons involved in it got in legitimate trouble for falsifying the appraisals and the sale was redone at an appropriate price. That part of the story is history/settled, the rest is ongoing. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-take-over-east-ramapo-school-district-and-defund-it/699714/58 "2014-09-28T01:13:03Z")
I would rather my girls converted to liberal Christianity than became Hassidic baalei teshuva. > **[Baal teshuva](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal_teshuva)** > > In Judaism, a ba'al teshuvah (Hebrew: בעל תשובה; for a woman, בעלת תשובה, baalat teshuva or baalas teshuva; plural, בעלי תשובה, baalei teshuva, 'owner of return \[to God or his way\]') is a Jew who adopts some form of traditional religious observance after having previously followed a secular lifestyle or a less stringent form of Judaism. > Originally, the term referred to a Jew who transgressed the halakhah (Jewish law) knowingly or unknowingly and completed a process of introspection to "return" t... ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-take-over-east-ramapo-school-district-and-defund-it/699714/59 "2014-09-28T01:13:31Z")
It is not motivated by “Judaism.” One group of people in one community took this action. It is not something that one finds lots of Hasidic communities doing. It is certainly not something that one finds Jews doing, generally. One group in one community who belong to one sect of a religion have taken an action. Your title suggested that it was, indeed, the actions motivated by a central tenet of the faith of all Jews. If you do not like how people read your posts, do a better job of composing them. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-take-over-east-ramapo-school-district-and-defund-it/699714/60 "2014-09-28T01:20:28Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It’s not at all uncommon to have school board members without children in the public schools because they have an agenda outside of providing the best education. It may be taxes or ideology, or just political animals gathering and exerting their influence. Speaking in general - is it your position that any time someone wants to be on a school board but doesn’t have kids him/herself attending public schools, their purpose has to have an unworthy agenda? Really? Having witnessed the workings of multiple school boards (including the “best face” presented at public meetings), I’d say simply wanting to assure a good education for children isn’t an overriding concern for many board members, whether or not their children are being educated in the schools they oversee. Political ambition, ego, busybody attitudes, special interests (religion, sports\*, curricular monkey business) motivate many of these people. If education was so important to them, they’d let education professionals handle matters much more commonly than actually occurs. As a reporter I once covered a school board that was debating whether to renovate a high school or build a new one (for a lot more money). One board member declared he was for the new building, because it would have a positive influence on success of the school’s sports teams. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-take-over-east-ramapo-school-district-and-defund-it/699714.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-take-over-east-ramapo-school-district-and-defund-it/699714.md?page=4)